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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes, she was.

        2    Q.  And William Thetford?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  Ken Wapnick?

        5    A.  Yes, he was.

        6    Q.  And did you give, to the best of your knowledge, all of the

        7    manuscript to anyone at that meeting?

        8    A.  You're talking about the entire manuscript?

        9    Q.  Yes.

       10    A.  No, I cannot.

       11    Q.  Did you give any to Russel Tarring?

       12    A.  Russel Tarring wasn't interested in this, and I gave him

       13    nothing.

       14    Q.  He did not ask and you gave him nothing?

       15    A.  He was interested in the phenomenon and not the material.

       16    Q.  How about David Hurt, who was vouched for by Russel

       17    Tarring, did he request some of the material?

       18    A.  He didn't request it of me.  I was sort of an addendum to

       19    that group.  He was interested in the experience from

       20    Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford.

       21    Q.  Did he request the materials?

       22    A.  He did request a piece of the material, yes.

       23    Q.  Was, to your recollection, any given to him?

       24    A.  I remember a small portion was given to him for his

       25    perusal, yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  If you had to estimate how many were given to him, what

        2    would your estimate be?

        3    A.  I don't remember whether it was a portion of the workbook

        4    or the teacher's manual or the text, but I would say it was

        5    about maybe this high (indicating)

        6    Q.  You're indicating again maybe a third of an inch?

        7    A.  About, yeah.

        8    Q.  And what was the purpose from your understanding of this

        9    meeting that this very small portion of the 8 by 12 was being

       10    given to David Hurt?

       11    A.  You mean the eight and a half by 11 material?

       12    Q.  Yeah, the small section.

       13    A.  Well, he was prevailing upon Helen to be able to see it and

       14    to take it home, and since she met with him face to face and

       15    Russel Tarring had introduced them and she figured that he was

       16    okay, I cannot tell you whether I handed it to him or Helen

       17    did.

       18    Q.  You're quite sure it was a very small portion?

       19    A.  Yes, that I'm sure of.

       20    Q.  From your own personal observation, listening and what have

       21    you, was David Hurt authorized to make copies of that?

       22    A.  Oh, no.

       23    Q.  What other professional activities related to -- I'm sorry,

       24    did you or did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford give copies of the

       25    manuscript to anyone else at the Stanford Research Institute?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  No.

        2    Q.  During the entire month long trip, give or take, in

        3    California, did you give a copy of the manuscript, the eight

        4    and a half by 11 or part of it to anybody?

        5    A.  No, I did not.

        6    Q.  To your observation, did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford give

        7    any part of it to anyone?

        8    A.  To my observation, no, absolutely not.

        9    Q.  Late July, August, what's happening with Dr. Criswell at

       10    this point in time?

       11    A.  She was busy with the paste up.  She was doing the work on

       12    that.  She reported that that was coming along and a couple of

       13    times I helped her.

       14    Q.  You actually saw what was going on?

       15    A.  Yeah.

       16    Q.  Where did that take place?

       17    A.  I think she lived in Navato at the time, which was very

       18    close.

       19    Q.  I don't know if us east coast guys know.

       20    A.  It's about 40 minutes north of San Francisco and on the way

       21    to where she worked in Sonoma State University.

       22    Q.  What did you observe about the copied eight and a half by

       23    11 that you had left with Dr. Criswell?

       24    A.  That she was working very hard on it.

       25    Q.  Physically what did you see?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  She had to mount the pages for being able to photocopy them

        2    so they can make xeroxing reduced size.

        3    Q.  Did you assist in that process?

        4    A.  Somewhat.

        5    Q.  Who did most of the work?

        6    A.  She did.

        7    Q.  And when did Drs. Wapnick, Thetford and Schucman, Louis

        8    Schucman on this, what I'll call group trip, leave?

        9    A.  Since their lease was a month long, the best I can place it

       10    was August 22nd.  I didn't extend the lease and that was their

       11    stay.

       12    Q.  Did you return with them to New York?

       13    A.  No, I didn't.

       14    Q.  Why not?

       15    A.  Well, I was waiting for the manuscript to be finished.

       16    Q.  And by the manuscript, that's interesting, what do you mean

       17    by that?

       18    A.  Well, Eleanor was working on this.  She was coming along

       19    quite well and she was taking it to Kopy Kat in Berkeley.  And

       20    I didn't want to wait, go back to New York, come back again or

       21    I didn't want the mail.  I was too excited to see them, so I

       22    stayed on.

       23    Q.  Did there come a time when the manuscript, as you just

       24    described it, was xeroxed in this form?

       25    A.  Yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Now, you have testified that the group left around August

        2    22nd.  Can you place the date?

        3    A.  I can't place it exactly, no.  It would be towards the end

        4    of August.  I would be guessing if I said 27th, 28th, 29th.  It

        5    was certainly before Labor Day.

        6    Q.  Why do you say it was before Labor Day?

        7    A.  I was teaching at New York University, and I was due back

        8    for the fall term and I had to prepare.  There were other

        9    personal reasons.

       10    Q.  Were you back in New York by Labor Day?

       11    A.  I think I was back.  Actually, the day before is my

       12    mother's birthday.

       13    Q.  And so between that and your NYU teaching, you know you

       14    returned to New York by Labor Day 1975?

       15    A.  Oh, yes.

       16    Q.  Did you have anything with you?

       17    A.  I did.  I had many copies of the reduced size manuscript.

       18    I left some in California.  I had given some out with a great

       19    deal of excitement to certain friends.  Gerald Jampolsky took

       20    some.

       21    Q.  I actually jumped ahead.  Tell the Court about the day if

       22    you remember when you actually picked up the reduced xerox

       23    manuscripts.

       24    A.  We went, Gerry Jampolsky and I went in his Mustang

       25    convertible to Berkeley and we met Eleanor Criswell at the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    place called Kopy Kat, K-O-P-Y  K-A-T, where it was a plain

        2    copy center.  No one was there at the time.  There wasn't

        3    people milling around.  There was a person greeting us when we

        4    stood at the front counter.  Dr. Criswell was inside and she

        5    was actually paying for them, and I couldn't wait.  They

        6    brought out one copy because I wanted to hold it in my hand.

        7    And Dr. Jampolsky had a bottle of chilled champagne and a few

        8    glasses.  There was a lot of pressure in the bottle, and maybe

        9    got somewhat warmer during the ride, and the cork crashed right

       10    through the drop ceiling and broke a panel, a plastic panel.

       11    And we looked up at the hole and we thought it was a very

       12    perpiscious beginning, but we didn't want anyone to see it.

       13    Q.  Did you receive copies of the manuscript that day?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  Ultimately, because there is a little

       16    confusion, apparently copying, your Honor, hasn't improved much

       17    we have a copy that we're going to introduce as an exhibit, but

       18    I'm going to use one of the actual books now.

       19    Q.  The first set of these, Criswell set of the manuscripts,

       20    what color was the cover?

       21    A.  Yellow.

       22    Q.  The second set, what color was it?

       23    A.  White.

       24    Q.  That was sometime later?

       25    A.  Yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  And then the third one?

        2    A.  Blue.

        3             MR. ROSENBERG:  We're told the yellow one is being

        4    returned.  It is at a copy center.  We're going to use one of

        5    the blue ones, and when the yellow one gets here, we'll

        6    substitute.

        7             MR. FABIAN:  We don't think it's necessary to

        8    substitute.  It's my understanding the cover is just different.

        9             (Pause)

       10             MR. ROSENBERG:  For now, I'm going to mark this

       11    volume, which happens to say Volume 2 for text in A Course in

       12    Miracles as 6.

       13             For convenience sake, I'll substitute it and explain

       14    so everyone can have a copy.

       15    Q.  I'm going to approach the witness and ask if you can

       16    identify what this volume is?

       17    A.  It's the first of a series.  Sorry, it's the second of a

       18    series of four volumes that comprised the course of the

       19    manuscript, A Course in Miracles, reduced in size.

       20    Q.  Would you turn to the first or second page.  Is there

       21    anything mentioned about copyright?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  Please read into the record what it says?

       24    A.  "Copyright -- with a small C and a circle -- 1975 by The

       25    Foundation for Parasensory Investigation.  All rights

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    reserved -- underlined -- printed in the United States of

        2    America.  First published in 1975 by Free Person Press, 325

        3    Ninth Street, San Francisco, California 94103."

        4    Q.  With the exception of the fact that this exhibit happens to

        5    have a blue cover, is this actually one of the actual copies?

        6    I don't mean a duplicate, but one of the ones that Eleanor

        7    Criswell happened to have copied?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  This was one of the third batch?

       10    A.  That's right.

       11    Q.  Would you open to any given page -- will you open to any

       12    page at random.  Maybe there will be some mystical significance

       13    to that; what page are you on?

       14    A.  500.

       15    Q.  Here is 499 and 500.  I'll show the Court.

       16             If we were to look in those notebooks of 499, is it

       17    exactly the same?

       18    A.  Yes, it is.

       19    Q.  It is actually just a reduced page.

       20    A.  It's running off these copies on a xerox machine reduced in

       21    size.

       22    Q.  If I were to look in that pile of thesis binders for page

       23    500, it would be precisely the same exact page as appears here?

       24    A.  Yes, it would.

       25    Q.  And these were produced by xerox, correct?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  And ultimately were hundreds and hundreds of xerox copies

        3    run off?

        4    A.  Yes.

        5    Q.  Over 300?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  And every one of them had a copyright notice inside?

        8    A.  Every one of them.

        9    Q.  So you now have -- what was the first run of the yellow

       10    covered one -- how many volumes was the 1500 pages reduced to?

       11    A.  Four.

       12    Q.  How many for the text?

       13    A.  Two.

       14    Q.  How many for the teacher's manual?

       15    A.  One thin one.

       16    Q.  And how many, and I'll just hold up the teacher's manual,

       17    I'm holding up another blue covered one, teacher's manual?

       18    A.  Correct.

       19    Q.  And how many for the workbook?

       20    A.  One.

       21    Q.  Total of four volumes all in the first printing with yellow

       22    covers?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  They are, in fact, the manuscript?

       25    A.  Yes, they are.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  How many did you pick up approximately this first run down

        2    of Kopy Kat in Berkeley?

        3    A.  We had actually ordered a hundred, but I think that first

        4    bunch they did an overrun for us because you never know what's

        5    going to happen.  I don't remember the exact number, but it was

        6    more than a hundred.

        7    Q.  What did you do after the champagne cork damaged the

        8    ceiling of Kopy Kat?  What did you do with the hundred?  You

        9    picked up all hundred or more sets?

       10    A.  Yes, in cartons.

       11    Q.  What did you do with it?

       12    A.  We went back to Gerry's house and started calling people

       13    and telling them they were ready.

       14    Q.  Pretty excited?

       15    A.  More than.

       16    Q.  Pretty enthusiastic?

       17    A.  Very.

       18    Q.  Higher demand than you expected?

       19    A.  We had no expectations of demand.  We knew the people who

       20    knew about it wanted copies.

       21    Q.  Did they want them?

       22    A.  Oh, did they.

       23    Q.  What did you begin to do with the copyrighted manuscript

       24    reduced and xeroxed?

       25    A.  We started to distribute it to the people who wanted it and

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    were waiting for it.

        2    Q.  What time period are we in now?

        3    A.  This first time period for the yellow manuscript was when I

        4    got the books, which I'm not sure of that date, and that is

        5    probably say August 26th or 7th.

        6    Q.  And you started passing them out right after that in

        7    California?

        8    A.  Oh, yeah.

        9    Q.  And, again, this case had been going on many years, this

       10    litigation?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  There has been a lot of discovery?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  Did you find some documents in the piles of documents that

       15    you had that shed some light on not only the timing but the

       16    recipients of the yellow xerox manuscript?

       17    A.  Yes, I did.

       18    Q.  And what did you find?

       19    A.  I found some sheets, legal size paper from a pad that I had

       20    written on and kept the record of the various people we either

       21    sold the copy to or gave to as a gift.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to ask the Court's

       23    indulgence --

       24             Here is a copy being placed in front of Mr. Fabian and

       25    an additional copy for the Court.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1             I move first into evidence Exhibit 6, your Honor, the

        2    Criswell manuscript.

        3             THE COURT:  It's admitted.

        4             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 received in evidence)

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Just for the record, because it is not

        6    stapled, Exhibit 7 is on yellow sheets, and it is a four-page

        7    document.  I'm going to present it to the witness.  While I'm

        8    doing that, I understand our copies of the Criswell edition

        9    have arrived.

       10    Q.  If you take a look at this, Ms. Skutch Whitson, and just

       11    hold the thought for a second.

       12             (Pause)

       13             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, for a little housekeeping,

       14    and I apologize for the slight delay, the yellow versions have

       15    arrived and I have four volumes in my hand that I'll place

       16    before the witness.

       17    Q.  Do you recognize these four volumes that have yellow

       18    covers, which I'm now going to have marked as Exhibit 6 in

       19    place of the blue one?

       20    A.  Yes, I do.  Those are the first copies of the manuscript in

       21    the reduced form bound in yellow covers.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  And what I would like to do, your

       23    Honor, for consistency is I'm going to take the first 25 pages

       24    of the xeroxed copy of that to be sort of coincident of the

       25    first 25 pages of the original manuscript.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, could this be a moment for a

        2    brief break, if I might have a moment to head to the men's

        3    room?

        4             MR. ROSENBERG:  Since I may require a similar courtesy

        5    later, I won't object.

        6             THE COURT:  You may leave if you want to, you have

        7    help.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to mark it 6A an excerpt of

        9    Exhibit 6, which is the first 25 pages.  It's really, your

       10    Honor, so it will be manageable for the Court.

       11    Q.  I would like to put before you Exhibit 6A and Exhibit 4,

       12    which you'll remember is the first 25 pages from the eight and

       13    a half by 11.

       14             MR. FABIAN:  What is 6A?

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  6A is -- 6 is the yellow four volume

       16    set.  6A is the first 25 pages from the first volume of Exhibit

       17    6 just for manageability.

       18    Q.  And I'm going to ask you to take Exhibit 4 and turn to page

       19    13.  And then I'm going to ask you to take 6A and turn to 13.

       20    How does Exhibit 4 begin?  What's at the top of the page?

       21    A.  The number 13, and under that, wholeness and spirit

       22    underlined.

       23    Q.  And then it begins with the words "the Miracle"?

       24    A.  Correct.

       25    Q.  And ends with the word "the" at the end of the page?

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  I'm going to place before you the two exhibits, and you can

        3    see in every respect they are identical because Exhibit 6 is

        4    simply a xerox of Exhibit 4; is that correct?

        5    A.  That's correct.

        6             MR. FABIAN:  I don't see that in my versions.  Can you

        7    tell me what you're doing?

        8    Q.  Now, I put before you Exhibit 7.  Would you please identify

        9    that, Ms. Skutch Whitson?

       10    A.  Yes, these four pages are the records of my distribution of

       11    the manuscript in the small form, the reduced size manuscript

       12    in the yellow cover.  And then there are two pages of that

       13    going up to page number 78.

       14             MR. ROSENBERG:  There are five pages which start with

       15    the number 1 and end with the number 126.

       16    Q.  Is this your handwriting?

       17    A.  Yes, it is.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  I would move for the admission of

       19    Exhibit 7.  Did we give one to the Court?

       20             With the Court's indulgence, I just need to get my

       21    copy of this list.

       22    Q.  Now, would you explain -- it says yellow book at the top of

       23    Exhibit 7.  I think that's self-explanatory.  That refers to

       24    Criswell 6 manuscript?

       25    A.  This, yes.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  This is all your handwriting?

        2    A.  Yes, it is.

        3    Q.  And then it says who has the course in Miracles.  When did

        4    you prepare this?

        5    A.  As soon as I started to disseminate them, which probably

        6    means that night or the next day.

        7    Q.  I'm not going to go through all of the 125 people.

        8    A.  Eleanor Criswell --

        9    Q.  When did you give Ms. Criswell the copyrighted manuscript?

       10    A.  She got the first one right from at Berkeley, Kopy Kat.

       11    Q.  Now, can you tell from this list kind of where you were at

       12    any given time?  Ms. Criswell was located where?

       13    A.  San Francisco working.

       14    Q.  And are all of the people at the beginning of this list

       15    from San Francisco or California?

       16    A.  Yes, they are.

       17    Q.  To about what number?

       18    A.  I would say number 22, which is kind of questionable

       19    because they are in both places.

       20    Q.  And I see 23 says Sausalito?

       21    A.  That's correct.

       22    Q.  And 24 says Wilbur Flynn, Kent State?

       23    A.  That's crossed out.  Not on 24.

       24    Q.  What do you have for number 24?

       25    A.  Wilbur Flynn, Kent Sate.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Right.  I see there is a thin pencil line that doesn't show

        2    up on the copy.

        3             Kent State is in Ohio?

        4    A.  That's right.

        5    Q.  So the first 23 or so people were in California?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  When did you give a copy of the xeroxed copyright

        8    manuscript to those 22 or 23 people?

        9    A.  After that.

       10    Q.  But before you came back to New York, before Labor Day?

       11    A.  Yes, I think.

       12    Q.  Do you have any reason to doubt that?

       13    A.  Well, the reason I'm not so sure whether I was actually

       14    there giving these out or not is because I have the addresses

       15    down on this list.  Most of these places I put people's

       16    addresses, I mailed them.

       17    Q.  When you were in California, you gave it to Eleanor

       18    Criswell, correct?

       19    A.  Yes, I did.

       20    Q.  And then I see, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, Jim Bolen?

       21    A.  That's right.

       22    Q.  Did you give him copies of the xeroxed manuscript when you

       23    were in California at this time?

       24    A.  The reduced size?

       25    Q.  Yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes, I did.

        2    Q.  I'm talking about the yellow Criswell edition.

        3    A.  I gave him five copies.

        4    Q.  Remember David Hurt that you met a week or so earlier?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  Did he get a copy of the copyrighted?

        7    A.  He got two.

        8    Q.  During late August 1975?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  I notice the name Jim Hickman, number 8, who is

       11    Mr. Hickman?

       12    A.  Jim Hickman was a young friend of ours who actually I call

       13    him a protege of Dr. Stanley Criptner, who was a professional

       14    associate.  And he was sponsored for one trip to Russia to

       15    investigate one of their devices by our foundation.

       16    Q.  So you had a professional relationship with Mr. Hickman?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  Do you have any recollection of whether before August he

       19    got a copy that says here of volume one of the text?  Do have

       20    any recollection of whether you had ever given him any pages of

       21    the 8 by 11 manuscript?

       22    A.  Well, Jim Hickman was in and out of our house.  He lived in

       23    California and he traveled a lot, and I do know that when he

       24    was in New York staying with us, that I showed him a document,

       25    told him the story and he met Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    And I cannot tell you how many pages I gave him, but I don't

        2    believe it was more than a portion of the text because it was

        3    heavy.  And later on he said he wanted the text.

        4    Q.  You didn't give him the whole course?

        5    A.  No.

        6    Q.  Did you ever give him permission to copy it?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  He would stay in your house for professional reasons,

        9    correct?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And by August you had given him a copy of what we call the

       12    copyrighted reduced xerox, right?

       13    A.  I noticed that on this list he is number eight.  I have the

       14    list marked with check marks for people who paid and -- this is

       15    for people who either couldn't afford to or it was going to be

       16    a gift.

       17    Q.  To move through this quickly because there are three runs

       18    of this xerox.  Can you tell from this list where it is that

       19    you're back in New York?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  Where is that?

       22    A.  Number 36.

       23    Q.  36 on the second page of Exhibit 7 is -- I can't make it

       24    out.  Can you read that?

       25    A.  It says Maria Janus.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Who is that?

        2    A.  She was a friend interested in the course and metaphysical

        3    things.  She was known as a healer in New York City besides

        4    being a celebrated artist.  She was the wife of Byron Janus the

        5    concert pianist, and she was the daughter of Gary Cooper.

        6    Q.  Had you ever given her a copy of the 8 by 11?

        7    A.  No, definitely not.

        8    Q.  And now I see Helen Schucman, Bill Thetford?

        9    A.  Bill Thetford actually has two.

       10    Q.  There is an individual named Joseph Janus.  Did you know

       11    Mr. Janus?

       12    A.  Yes, I did.

       13    Q.  Strictly limiting it to New York, when did you meet with

       14    Mr. Janus?

       15    A.  I believe I met him '72 or 3.  I'm not sure of the year.

       16    Q.  When was the first time that Mr. Janus, to your knowledge,

       17    learned about A Course in Miracles?

       18    A.  He came to our house in the late summer 1975 to consult my

       19    then husband, Bob Skutch, about a medical condition that the

       20    doctors weren't able to help him with.  It was an allergy.

       21    Q.  Bob Skutch is not a doctor?

       22    A.  Yes, he is.  He did meditative and spiritual healing.

       23             THE COURT:  We will have some of that healing right

       24    now.

       25             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  All rise.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1             (Recess)

        2             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  All rise.

        3             THE COURT:  Please be seated.

        4             MR. ROSENBERG:  Proceed, your Honor?

        5             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

        6    Q.  You know you have told in some detail the story of

        7    Dr. Criswell making these xeroxes of the manuscript when you

        8    picked them up, and I'm going to ask you again, how sure are

        9    you of the date?

       10    A.  I can't be positive since I didn't -- I don't have diaries

       11    or anything from that time, but I could say I'm virtually

       12    positive.

       13    Q.  Let me ask in another way.  How certain are you it was in

       14    August of 1975?

       15    A.  Very positive.

       16    Q.  You're certain of that?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  When you came back to New York after Labor Day, when you

       19    met Joe Janus you had Exhibit 6 with you?

       20    A.  Yes, I did.

       21    Q.  No question about that?

       22    A.  No question about that.

       23    Q.  I'm going to put in front of you what we have marked as

       24    Exhibit 8, which was an affidavit that was filed some time ago

       25    in connection with prior summary judgment proceedings.  And do

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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