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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  But you did meet with her in July?

        2    A.  Yes, I did.

        3    Q.  But your testimony is that you met with her in June?

        4    A.  Yes, that's right.

        5    Q.  Where did that meeting take place?

        6    A.  It was in the library of the Humanistic Institute on Ninth

        7    Street.

        8    Q.  Who was present at this meeting?

        9    A.  Dr. Criswell and myself.

       10    Q.  What was discussed that in any way had to do with the

       11    course of Miracles-- by the way, did you have the manuscript

       12    with you?

       13    A.  I had part of the manuscript, I think, I remember in a

       14    shopping bag.  Not all of it.  I didn't carry all of it to see

       15    her.  But Dr. Harry Criptner who was a good friend of mine, who

       16    founded the Institute, had suggested she would be a good person

       17    for me to work under for my proposed doctoral degree.  And in

       18    between the time when I had registered for this program and

       19    paid my entrance fee of $2500, I received the course.  And I

       20    wasn't sure whether I wanted to pursue my degree on a

       21    technology for helping develop extra sensory perception in

       22    children, for which I would have to take courses in statistics

       23    at New York University, or whether I was just drawn by this

       24    material.

       25    Q.  What did you tell Dr. Criswell at this meeting?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  I told her a little bit about Course of Miracles.  Mostly

        2    we discussed her being my doctoral advisor.  I told her that --

        3    it was a brief meeting, I should add.  It was not a scheduled

        4    meeting.  And I told her that I had a document that had come

        5    into my life in an unusual way.  And I do not remember if she

        6    looked at it at that time.

        7             But she did tell me since I had enough and was

        8    dragging them around, that document looks unwieldy and that she

        9    had a little business on the side called Free Person Press,

       10    where she would take her doctoral candidates' thesis and reduce

       11    them in size for them, so they could have them put together in

       12    a book.  And that if I ever needed that done, she would be glad

       13    to help me with it.

       14    Q.  And this meeting, if you remember, whether the copyright

       15    status of the manuscript was discussed with Dr. Criswell, who

       16    was talking about reducing it and talking about putting it into

       17    a book?

       18    A.  I don't remember.  It wasn't that specific a conference.

       19    Q.  Just so there is no lack of clarity, we'll certainly cover

       20    this later, Dr. Criswell did assist in running off hundreds of

       21    copies of the manuscript by Xerox, correct?

       22             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor, as to counsel's

       23    putting words --

       24             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's called leading.  I'll say I'm

       25    sorry, and I'll rephrase it.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Did there come a time when Dr. Criswell assisted in any way

        2    in reducing the manuscript?

        3    A.  Eventually a few weeks later.  She suggested that, again,

        4    our meeting in July that that might be a very good idea to do.

        5    I had already discussed it with Helen and Bill.

        6    Q.  I just want to know if you discussed it with Dr. Criswell?

        7    A.  Yes, I did.

        8    Q.  And we're going to cover this in much more detail later.

        9    Did such a copying process of the course occur?

       10    A.  Yes, it did.

       11    Q.  What was the process of reproduction?

       12    A.  Xeroxed.

       13    Q.  Were hundreds of copies made?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  Did they have a copyright notice affixed?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  How sure of you are this?

       18    A.  I'm positive.

       19    Q.  We have copies that we're introducing later.

       20    A.  It was insisted upon by Helen.

       21    Q.  And Dr. Criswell has talked about her little printing

       22    business, correct?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  Did you leave any part of the manuscript with her that day?

       25    A.  No.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Did she take it temporarily that day and make a copy of it?

        2    A.  No, she did not.

        3    Q.  At this point Dr. Jampolsky has one, Mr. Bolen has --

        4    A.  Two.

        5    Q.  And you have?

        6    A.  One.

        7    Q.  Anyone else in California on this trip that you gave the

        8    manuscript or a copy of the manuscript to?

        9    A.  No.

       10    Q.  And I was going to ask, did you return to New York, but

       11    since you are here today that would be too broad a question.

       12             Did you return to New York from that trip in June of

       13    1975?

       14    A.  Yes, very soon after.

       15    Q.  Can you approximate in June when it was?

       16    A.  I know it was before the middle of June.

       17    Q.  That you returned?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  How do you know that?

       20    A.  Well, because I made two other trips, and I know the dates

       21    of those pretty well.

       22    Q.  When you went back out to California?

       23    A.  That's right.

       24    Q.  So we're now in mid June, and you're back in New York?

       25    A.  That's right.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Did you meet with Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford at any time

        2    following your return?

        3    A.  We met almost every day.  Basically all of us two times a

        4    week, but sometimes every day with me.

        5    Q.  Was there any discussion during this time that you're back

        6    in New York with Dr. Thetford and Dr. Schucman about publishing

        7    the course?

        8    A.  There was discussion about making the course available in a

        9    form that could be examined by people.

       10    Q.  Did you mention anything about Dr. Criswell to them?

       11    A.  Oh, yes, I did.

       12    Q.  What did you say to Drs. Thetford and Schucman in June of

       13    1975?

       14    A.  I told them about her, and I told them what she did.  And

       15    this might be a temporary solution until we found out what was

       16    our next step.  And I say that because we didn't just sit

       17    around and decide these things.  We had a specific way of

       18    sitting and quieting ourself and asking for the inner answer or

       19    inner guidance.  So this was our procedure.  And we did that,

       20    and we felt Helen and Bill Thetford, of course, felt that it

       21    was alright to reduce the manuscript and Xerox it off and put

       22    it in whatever kind of binders temporarily.

       23    Q.  I want to make clear, when that was done a copyright notice

       24    was affixed?

       25    A.  Oh, yes.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Speaking of which, was there any discussion during this

        2    trip, you're now back in mid-June, any discussion about

        3    copyright?

        4    A.  Well, Dr. Schucman made a surprising announcement to me,

        5    which I do remember extremely well.

        6    Q.  Do you know where this took place?

        7    A.  In think it was in a large hallway in my apartment in the

        8    Barrisford.

        9    Q.  Do you remember the approximate date on this time line?

       10    A.  No, I don't.

       11    Q.  Would it have been in June?

       12    A.  Yes, certainly.

       13    Q.  After your return?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  What did Dr. Schucman say to you?

       16    A.  She said, "he says it must be copyrighted."

       17    Q.  I'm sorry, she said, "He said it must be copyrighted".

       18    A.  That's right.

       19             MR. FABIAN:  Objection.  That's double hearsay.

       20             MR. ROSENBERG:  None of it is hearsay.

       21             THE COURT:  Overruled.

       22    Q.  Did you ask her who he was, or did you know from contextual

       23    conversations?

       24    A.  Well, from conversations, she either called that inner

       25    voice "he" or "the voice".

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  So she says "he" meaning the voice, said what?

        2    A.  "It must be copyrighted."

        3    Q.  What did you say?

        4    A.  Frankly, I was a little surprised.

        5    Q.  What did you say?

        6    A.  I said, I'll do whatever he wants.

        7    Q.  And who was going to hold the copyright?  Did Dr. Schucman

        8    tell you this?

        9    A.  Yes, she did.  She said that it was not an accident that we

       10    had a not for profit foundation and she said it should be

       11    copyrighted to the Foundation of the Parasensory, but she did

       12    not like the name; thank you.

       13    Q.  What was her manner, by the way?

       14    A.  She was a very intelligent highly enegmatic in the sense

       15    that she had so much depth; fisty lady.

       16    Q.  Brusk on occasion?

       17    A.  She was more than brusk on occasion, but she could also be

       18    incredibly sweet and charming.

       19    Q.  She was not taken with this name foundation of parasensory

       20    investigation?

       21    A.  No, she looked down upon anything like that.

       22    Q.  I want to be clear, who was to hold the copyright?

       23    A.  The Foundation for Parasensory Investigation.

       24    Q.  Did you discuss with her the distaste for the name?

       25    A.  She said at the time she didn't really like the name.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Was the name ultimately changed?

        2    A.  Yes, it was at her request.

        3    Q.  That was later?

        4    A.  Yes, it was.

        5    Q.  What else, if anything, did you say at the request that the

        6    course, the manuscript be copyrighted?

        7    A.  I said that this is not something that I do, that Bob

        8    Skutch was a businessman, who also had been a writer for many

        9    years of television plays and advertising copy, knew exactly

       10    how to do that, I supposed.  And that when he came home from

       11    the office, I would ask him if he would do that.

       12    Q.  Did you later ask Bob Skutch, writer of television series

       13    advertising, and as we'll see later, a certain book, did you

       14    tell him anything about the copyright?

       15    A.  When he came home, as best as I can remember, I told him

       16    that we had to have this material copyrighted.

       17    Q.  Did you ask anything of him?

       18    A.  I said would he please do the paperwork?

       19    Q.  What did he say?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  Now, how long did you remain in New York following your

       22    return from your early June trip to California?

       23    A.  Probably about two weeks.

       24    Q.  During that two-week period, you had your copy of the

       25    manuscript, correct?

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes, I did.

        2    Q.  To the best of your recollection, here in court under oath,

        3    did you give a copy of all or part of that manuscript to anyone

        4    during this two-week period?

        5    A.  No, I didn't.

        6    Q.  And we're now at a point where copyright has been

        7    requested, correct?

        8    A.  That's right.

        9    Q.  And to your knowledge, during this two-week period, did Jim

       10    Bolen give copies -- we'll hear from him -- did he give copies

       11    to anyone else?

       12    A.  To my knowledge, he did not.

       13    Q.  Gerry Jampolsky?

       14    A.  To my knowledge, he did not.

       15    Q.  Did you go back out to California in late June, early July

       16    1975?

       17    A.  Yes, I did.

       18    Q.  What is your best approximation, if you can, of the date?

       19    A.  Well, I have two ways of remembering because it was so long

       20    ago.  One, is that there is a very particular July 4th

       21    celebration in January Francisco Bay called the Tall Ships and

       22    they were having ships from all over the world and sail under

       23    the Golden Gate Bridge.  And I love to take photographs.  It

       24    was very touching.  So I was there at least a couple of days

       25    before that.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  So you have a clear memory of that?

        2    A.  Oh, yes.

        3    Q.  So you can place your return to California at least

        4    somewhat before --

        5    A.  It could have been the very end of June.  It could have

        6    been the very end of July.  My guess is it is probably before

        7    July 1st.

        8    Q.  Did you bring another copy with you?

        9    A.  At that point I brought a different copy with me.

       10    Q.  Where did you get that second copy?

       11    A.  I was allowed to make two.

       12    Q.  You had that original and were allowed to make two more or

       13    one more?

       14    A.  Two.

       15    Q.  What did you do with the two more copies you had?

       16    A.  One I had with me, and one I left at home in my closet.

       17    Q.  Did you have the thesis binders with you?

       18    A.  No.

       19    Q.  Those you left in your closet?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  You had two stacks of 1500 pages each?

       22    A.  One stack.  I didn't bring two copies with me.  One I left

       23    in my closet, the other I took to California, I think.

       24    Q.  I know it's a lot of years ago, and there are a lot of

       25    trips.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yeah.  I know I made two because somehow or other, I found

        2    the receipt someplace for Grand Central Station.

        3    Q.  Is that where the copy place was?

        4    A.  Yes.

        5    Q.  What was copying like, by the way, in 1975?

        6    A.  Well, that machine was pretty darn slow.

        7    Q.  Did you do it yourself?

        8    A.  No, I stood there.  Well, they started it, and then I

        9    waited and it was quite a while.

       10    Q.  Not like today with the automatic feeders and paginators?

       11    A.  I believe they had something automatic then for larger

       12    places.  But the ones that I was in contact with that day were

       13    not very large.

       14    Q.  You went back out to California, correct, in, we said, late

       15    June or early July?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  And did you see James Bolen during that trip, if you

       18    recall?

       19    A.  I believe I did.  I don't actually remember, but I believe

       20    I did.

       21    Q.  Did you give him any additional copies of the course?

       22    A.  No, I did not.

       23    Q.  Did you give him any authorization to pass out copies?

       24    A.  No.

       25    Q.  Did he advise you whether he had passed out copies?

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  I believe he told me at that time that he made one extra

        2    copy to keep in his office that he and his partner were looking

        3    through because he wanted to mark it up.  And also because he

        4    was starting to study the material.  It wasn't just an interest

        5    about maybe writing about it in his magazine.  And since it has

        6    a lesson a day for 365 days, he wanted another copy so he could

        7    take the eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper and fold it up

        8    and put it in his pocket.

        9    Q.  Was there any indication that he had not complied with your

       10    directive about not disseminating the course?

       11    A.  He certainly did not.

       12    Q.  He did not say so to you?

       13    A.  No, he did not.

       14             THE COURT:  Lunch.  2:00 p.m.

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  Good afternoon, your Honor.

       16             (Luncheon recess)

       17                           AFTERNOON SESSION

       18                               2:15 p.m.

       19             THE COURT:  Please be seated.

       20             MR. ROSENBERG:  With your indulgence, I'll just

       21    resume.

       22    Q.  Ms. Skutch Whitson, when we left off, I think we were in

       23    some time around the Tall Ships, as I remember.  You were back

       24    in California; is that correct?

       25    A.  That's correct.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  And you had said it was late June or early July when you

        2    got out there?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  Now, did you see Mr. Bolen, if you remember, when you --

        5    did you see Mr. Bolen on this return trip to California?

        6    A.  I usually saw him in California.

        7    Q.  Do you recall whether you discussed the course with him?

        8    A.  Yes, I did.

        9    Q.  And do you recall where that meeting or discussion took

       10    place?

       11    A.  I met with him at his office usually only a couple of

       12    times.  Do I remember that I met with him someplace?

       13    Q.  These meetings during this trip took place at his office?

       14    A.  I believe so.

       15    Q.  Did you discuss the course with Mr. Bolen?

       16    A.  Yes, we certainly discussed the course.

       17    Q.  What did Mr. Bolen tell you in a nutshell?  What was his

       18    reaction to the course?

       19    A.  He told me paraphrased that it was something that he was

       20    very excited by both professionally and personally.  And he

       21    told me, I believe, that he had made another copy for David

       22    Hammond.  He would take pages to put in his pocket so he can do

       23    the lesson for the day.  I think it was at that trip that he

       24    told me he would like to meet Helen and Bill.  And I think it

       25    was at that trip -- I think it was that trip that he would like

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    to do something in his magazine about it.

        2    Q.  At this point had the manuscript been published with any

        3    copyright notice affixed?

        4    A.  No.

        5    Q.  Did you give him permission to put parts of the course in

        6    his magazine?

        7    A.  Oh, no.

        8    Q.  Did he at this time?

        9    A.  No, he did not.

       10    Q.  Did he tell you that he had made other than this one

       11    additional copy any other copies of the course?

       12    A.  No, he did not.

       13    Q.  Did he advise you that he had passed out copies to anyone

       14    other than himself and his partner, Mr. Hammond, at the

       15    magazine had looked at it?

       16    A.  No, he did not.

       17    Q.  Did you see Gerry Jampolsky during this trip, late June,

       18    early July?

       19    A.  Yes, I did.

       20    Q.  Did you discuss the course with Mr. Jampolsky?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  In a nutshell, in summary fashion, what did Dr. Jampolsky

       23    tell you?

       24    A.  Well, he told me what kind of an affect it was having on

       25    his life.  In other words, if I remember correctly, the words

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    he used was grabbing him.  And we read it together out loud a

        2    lot, and we went over the meaning of various phrases at certain

        3    times.  I, not being sure myself, I would call up Dr. Thetford

        4    and Dr. Schucman on the phone, and we would go over the various

        5    phrases.  They were, I should add, teaching me at the time.

        6    Q.  About the course's meaning?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  Did you have any discourse about his reaction to the

        9    course, what he felt it was about, the course?

       10    A.  Well, he was hesitant about the course itself because the

       11    course has courses speaking in the first person and we did

       12    discuss that.  He also, if I remember correctly, he also

       13    started then working on a lesson a day with me.

       14    Q.  Again, was there sort of a professional exchange discussing

       15    the course?

       16    A.  Oh, yes.  He told me in his language, again, it wasn't

       17    crazy.

       18    Q.  It wasn't crazy?

       19    A.  No, it wasn't crazy.

       20    Q.  Dr. Jampolsky had the one copy that had been provided that

       21    Jim Bolen had made?

       22    A.  That's correct.

       23    Q.  Did you see this copy?

       24    A.  That's what we used.  We used mine and his to read aloud.

       25    Q.  To your knowledge, based on your observation, based on what

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Dr. Jampolsky told you, did Dr. Jampolsky make copies of the

        2    copy that he had at this time?

        3    A.  No, he did not, as far as I know.

        4    Q.  Do you have any knowledge of your own that Dr. Jampolsky

        5    distributed any part of the course or all of it at this time to

        6    any individuals?

        7    A.  None whatsoever.

        8    Q.  Now, I think you testified earlier about the Noetic Science

        9    Institute, something like that?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  You mentioned a Dr. Edgar Mitchell.

       12    A.  Correct.

       13    Q.  He is an astronaut who walked on the moon, correct?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  Did you meet with Dr. Edgar Mitchell -- first of all, when

       16    did you first meet Dr. Mitchell?

       17    A.  I think it was '72 or 3.  It was right after his moon trip,

       18    right after he came back.

       19    Q.  And this was certainly before you ever heard of A Course In

       20    Miracles?

       21    A.  Oh, yes.

       22    Q.  What was the nature of your relationship; how would you

       23    describe or characterize it?

       24    A.  Well, he wanted to do research in the field.  He wanted to

       25    get a group of people together who would start doing funded

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    research.  He wanted to legitimize the field more or less by

        2    bringing his image and his scientific knowledge of humans in

        3    it.  This is, of course, what I hoped and dreamt for when I

        4    started with my ex-husband my own tiny foundation for

        5    parasensory investigation.  I raised some money for

        6    Dr. Mitchell.

        7    Q.  Would you describe your relationship as a professional one?

        8    A.  Very much so.

        9    Q.  Did you respect his opinion?

       10    A.  I still do.

       11    Q.  Do you believe from your observation that he respected

       12    yours?

       13    A.  I hope so.

       14    Q.  Did you occupy any position on this Noetic Science

       15    Institute?

       16    A.  Yes, I did.

       17    Q.  What was your position?

       18    A.  At that point I was founding board member.

       19    Q.  Now, while you're in California in early July of '75, did

       20    you meet with Dr. Mitchell?

       21    A.  Yes, I went down to see him in Palo Alto.

       22    Q.  What would bring you there to see him?  Did he maintain a

       23    regular office?

       24    A.  We had offices down there.

       25    Q.  We being?

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Institute of Noetic Sciences.

        2    Q.  And you had communicated to Dr. Mitchell regularly over the

        3    several years that you knew him?

        4    A.  We had periodic board meetings and conversations on the

        5    telephone.

        6    Q.  When you met with him in July of 1975, did you discuss A

        7    Course In Miracles with him?

        8    A.  In July of 1975 I certainly did discuss A Course In

        9    Miracles with him.  It was too exciting for me to contain, and

       10    he was a very, very, very trusted friend and a colleague.

       11    Q.  Now, you say it's too exciting for you to contain.  I want

       12    to make clear up to this point, had you passed up any portion

       13    of the course to anyone other than the very few individuals

       14    that you mentioned?

       15    A.  No, I did not.

       16    Q.  What did you tell, in a nutshell, Dr. Mitchell?

       17    A.  I told him the story about Dr. B and Dr. H, how I met them.

       18    I didn't say what university they were at in the beginning.  I

       19    told him that I felt that this was a very exciting and moving

       20    document that I thought many people would like to know about,

       21    and that I wanted his advice.

       22    Q.  Advice about what?

       23    A.  Well, he knew many, many more people than I did, and they

       24    were all in the same profession, so to speak.  And he himself

       25    was a diseminator of ideas.  He spoke in public, and as I said,

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        1    looked to sponsor a search.  We actually were sponsoring a

        2    search then.  I wanted his approval, I guess.

        3    Q.  This was a work worth pursuing?

        4    A.  That it was important, yes.

        5    Q.  Before you took further steps?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  Did you give this entire -- you had the course with you?

        8    A.  Not in that form.

        9    Q.  You had made a couple of copies -- this form meaning, I'm

       10    pointing to what's going to be Exhibit 3 when we mark it, which

       11    is the actual thesis notebooks.  Was this the one home in your

       12    closet?

       13    A.  Yes, it was.

       14    Q.  And you had two other copies, correct?

       15    A.  Yes.

       16    Q.  And you brought them to California?

       17    A.  I brought both copies to California.

       18    Q.  And they were in Xerox form?

       19    A.  They were in Xerox form, right.  They were loose pages.

       20    They weren't bound.

       21    Q.  They were 1500 pages?

       22    A.  They were in gray boxes.

       23    Q.  From the copy place?

       24    A.  That's right.

       25    Q.  Did you give the entire 1500 pages to Dr. Mitchell at this

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        1    meeting or at any time?

        2    A.  No, I did not.

        3    Q.  Did you give him any?

        4    A.  I believe I did.

        5    Q.  What did you give him?

        6    A.  Well, I wanted him very much to look at it, and he had

        7    actually said to me something to the affect of you know, Judy,

        8    I have a lot of these manuscripts too, and he opened the door

        9    and pointed to a stack of stuff inside, which I did not

       10    examine.  The story sounds interesting, but the story is much

       11    more interesting and important how it came than what it's

       12    about.

       13    Q.  Are you specifically sure you gave him a portion?

       14    A.  To the best of my knowledge, I gave him a little bunch to

       15    look at that, like about that.

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  For the record, the witness indicated

       17    what, I would say about an eighth of an inch.

       18    A.  No, maybe a little -- it looks like a quarter of an inch.

       19    Q.  At most, how many pages did you give Dr. Mitchell?

       20    A.  I don't think more than 50.  It was not more than the first

       21    couple or third chapter, fourth chapter the most.

       22    Q.  What was your purpose in giving Dr. Mitchell these pages?

       23    A.  I really wanted him to look at it.

       24    Q.  Did you give him any understanding as to whether he could

       25    disseminate any of the pages you gave him?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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