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        1    sponsoring and lecturing at a conference at the New York

        2    Academy of Medicine.  And while I was speaking there, there was

        3    an attendee I did not know about named Dr. William Thetford.

        4    When I gave my introductory talk it seemed that how I put

        5    certain phrases about healing being of the mind interested him

        6    very much.  He felt it was either very relevant to almost

        7    quotes of the document that he subsequently presented me with.

        8             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor, the witness

        9    testifying to the thoughts and how Dr. Thetford testified.  He

       10    is dead.

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, it's background

       12    information.

       13             THE COURT:  Overruled.

       14    Q.  The point is this is how you met up to meet Dr. Thetford?

       15    A.  The point is it was kind of magical to me.

       16    Q.  What happened that led you to Dr. Thetford?

       17    A.  A friend of mine who was a fellow professor, he was at

       18    Newark College of Engineering, Dr. Douglas Dean, was talking to

       19    Dr. Thetford after I was on the podium.  And Dr. Thetford

       20    invited him and me as friends and colleagues to visit him and

       21    his associate, Dr. Helen Schucman, at Columbia University

       22    School of Physicians and Surgeons.

       23             MR. FABIAN:  I don't mean to keep objecting, but if

       24    we're going to take it as background, I'll understand, but it

       25    is hearsay.

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        1             THE COURT:  Yes, of course.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  It's not hearsay.  It's not introduced

        3    for the truth.  It's what Dr. Thetford told her to go meet him.

        4    Q.  Did you meet Dr. Thetford?

        5    A.  Yes, I did.

        6    Q.  Did he arrange for you and -- is it Dr. Dean?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  To meet with Dr. Thetford and Dr. Helen Schucman?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  Where did the meeting take place?

       11    A.  In the faculty lounge, which is also a teacher's dining

       12    room.

       13    Q.  What was the date of the meeting?

       14    A.  May 29, 1975.

       15    Q.  Who was present at the meeting?

       16    A.  At the luncheon was present Dr. Douglas Dean, myself,

       17    Dr. Helen Schucman and Dr. William Thetford.

       18    Q.  And would you describe briefly what happened at the meeting

       19    in the teacher's lunch room?

       20    A.  Yes, sir.

       21    Q.  Tell the Court what happened, what was discussed at this

       22    meeting?

       23    A.  Well, we were just having general conversation.  Truthfully

       24    I had no idea why I was there.  And I was hoping we could

       25    sponsor some research at Columbia School of Physicians and

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        1    Surgeons about fields that we were interested in.

        2    Q.  Did you discuss that with Dr. Schucman?

        3    A.  She wasn't very interested in it.  I brought it up.  She

        4    wasn't very interested.

        5    Q.  From what you she told you, what you learned, what was her

        6    position at the time?

        7    A.  She was an associate of Dr. Thetford's in the Department of

        8    Psychology at the School of Physicians and Surgeons.

        9    Q.  What was Dr. Thetford's position from what you learned from

       10    him?

       11    A.  He was head of the department.

       12    Q.  What else transpired from this meeting in the lunchroom?

       13    A.  It was a bit confusing for me, and I felt a little out of

       14    sorts when suddenly not understanding why I said it, it just

       15    came out of my mouth to her, so you're hearing an inner voice,

       16    are you.

       17    Q.  You said this to whom?

       18    A.  I said this to Dr. Schucman.

       19    Q.  You're hearing an inner voice; what did Dr. Schucman

       20    respond?

       21    A.  She was shocked and she held on to her colleague's arm and

       22    he started to laugh and said, we're going back to our office

       23    now.

       24    Q.  What happened next?

       25    A.  We went back to their office --

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        1    Q.  Let me break this down.  It's a court proceeding.  I don't

        2    want to get more objections.

        3             Who was present at the office?

        4    A.  Present at the office before I entered it was Dr. Douglas

        5    Dean, Dr. William.

        6             THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Dr. Douglas --

        7             THE WITNESS:  Dean.

        8    Q.  D-E-A-N?

        9    A.  That's correct.

       10    Q.  Who else was at the office?

       11    A.  William Thetford, Helen Schucman.  And outside the door

       12    they pulled the shades down, as it was a glass window, and we

       13    went in.  And then they locked the door, and then they

       14    introduced Dr. Kenneth Wapnick who was in the office.

       15    Q.  So Dr. Wapnick was there as well?

       16    A.  In the office, yes.

       17    Q.  A lot of doctors; Dean, Thetford, Schucman, Wapnick and non

       18    doctor, Judith Skutch Whitson?

       19    A.  Then Judith Skutch.

       20    Q.  That's right at that time you were married to Robert

       21    Skutch?

       22    A.  That's correct.

       23    Q.  Your name was Judy Skutch?

       24    A.  Correct.

       25    Q.  Tell us what happened at this meeting, who said what to

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        1    whom and how you responded?

        2    A.  To the best of my recollection, Bill and Helen didn't --

        3    may I call them Bill and Helen?

        4    Q.  I think that's okay, if you will confirm Bill refers to?

        5    A.  Dr. William Thetford.

        6    Q.  Helen?

        7    A.  Dr. Helen Schucman.

        8    Q.  Ken, if that comes up?

        9    A.  Dr. Kenneth Wapnick.

       10    Q.  Tell us what happened.

       11    A.  Bill and Helen said they have some story to tell and Helen

       12    was nervous about the story being told, started to launch in

       13    interchangeably they would inject things in each other's story.

       14    Q.  They being?

       15    A.  Helen and Bill.  And they told me the story about how they

       16    had been working together for quite a few years, and that it

       17    was under different circumstances because academia at best is

       18    not easy and that publish or perish I think came from academia.

       19    And that the whole group they were working with was always

       20    frought with battles and discontent and disease, and their own

       21    personal relationship was very jarring since they too did not

       22    get along very well.

       23             One day, as an impassioned plea that they try

       24    something different, Bill Thetford put out his hand to Helen

       25    and said there has got to be another way, what we're doing

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        1    isn't working, the relationships are very bad, it's causing

        2    anxiety to all of us.

        3    Q.  This is what he and Helen told you at this meeting?

        4    A.  This is what they told me.

        5    Q.  What else did they say?

        6    A.  And he said there must be a better way of living in the

        7    world.

        8    Q.  Now, at this point he is citing to you his story?

        9    A.  She is telling me his story and she is adding in and then

       10    he would speak and then she would add something interject.

       11    Q.  And what happened next?

       12    A.  She told me, she followed it, she said, it really surprised

       13    me because instead of being combative or critical of this

       14    impassioned statement, which was very unlike him, that she put

       15    out his hand to reach his, and she said I don't know what a

       16    better way it is that you're talking about, but whatever it is

       17    I'll help you find it.

       18    Q.  And did from what they told you at this meeting on May 29,

       19    1975, did the better way manifest itself?

       20    A.  Well, they told me many more details but eventually they

       21    got to the end of the story, and I knew by this point that she

       22    had been, she called it the receiver or the scribe of a very

       23    unusual manuscript, which was the antithesis of everything she

       24    believed as a scientist.  She was very embarrassed by it.  She

       25    was apprehensive about letting me see it, but Bill had

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        1    convinced her that this material needed to be shown to me.

        2    Q.  Briefly what did Dr. Schucman tell you about the process by

        3    which this manuscript had been created?

        4    A.  She told me it was very surprising in the sense that she

        5    felt she literally heard an inner voice.  And that that

        6    particular voice would speak as if she said inner dictation was

        7    more the way she described it.  And then one night after many

        8    other kinds of let's call them paranormal experiences, she got

        9    up and couldn't sleep, and she felt that that inner dictation

       10    said to her please take notes, this is A Course in Miracles.

       11    Q.  That's what she heard, she was reciting what she heard in

       12    her head?

       13    A.  She felt -- she was very distressed by this because she

       14    treated people who heard things.  And she called up

       15    Dr. Thetford who was at his home, and he said look, we have

       16    been having so much going on with this interest recently, why

       17    don't you just do what it says.

       18    Q.  Meaning?

       19    A.  Take down the notes.

       20    Q.  From what Dr. Schucman told you from this meeting, did she

       21    take down the notes?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  In what form?

       24    A.  In a shorthand notebook, her own form of shorthand which

       25    was some words and some little symbols that she knew how to

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        1    decipher.  She had once taken Gregg or Pitman, I don't remember

        2    which.

        3    Q.  Did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford tell you to process what

        4    happened in these notepads that Dr. Schucman was writing down

        5    in what became the manuscript?

        6    A.  They both told me --

        7             MR. FABIAN:  I'm sorry, are we still on the same

        8    conversation?

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes.

       10             MR. FABIAN:  I couldn't hear you.

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm sorry, this is very distracting,

       12    Your Honor.  Can I take one minute and try to move this?  I

       13    keep feeling like I'm going to trip on it.

       14             THE COURT:  Yes.

       15             (Pause)

       16    Q.  Did Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford tell you the process by

       17    which Dr. Schucman taking these notes down became the

       18    manuscript?

       19    A.  They told me that she would take down from her inner

       20    dictation what it said.  She called it the voice.  And the next

       21    morning she would come in to the office where they would lock

       22    the door and pull down the shade, just as they had when I

       23    arrived.

       24    Q.  I want to talk to you about that.  Did they tell you why

       25    that date they pulled down the shades and locked the door?

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        1    A.  They said they wanted complete privacy.

        2    Q.  Did they tell you as they recite the story why they pulled

        3    the shades down every day and locked the door when they came

        4    into their office?

        5    A.  As part of the story, yes, later on.

        6    Q.  What did they tell you at this meeting?

        7    A.  Yes, but it was very clear from the conversation which,

        8    unfortunately, I can't reconstruct, that she was terribly

        9    upset, very anxious and embarrassed by all of this.

       10    Q.  By this voice?

       11    A.  By the story that was being told to me.  She was not happy

       12    with her scientific image being compromised.

       13    Q.  She was a professor at Columbia?

       14    A.  Yes, she was.

       15    Q.  What did she and Mr. Thetford tell you happened with the

       16    writing and the manuscript process?

       17    A.  She would dictate it and she would type it up.  They had

       18    quite a manuscript going.  They didn't know what it would be

       19    but they kept on going.

       20    Q.  Did they tell you how long a process it was that they wrote

       21    it down and typed it up?

       22    A.  Over seven years.

       23    Q.  What happened next at this meeting in their office on May

       24    29th?

       25    A.  Well, after they finished their story, which by the way

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        1    didn't surprise me too much because I had been studying things

        2    like that for many years, Dr. Thetford said to Dr. Schucman

        3    well I think we better show it to her now, which, of course, I

        4    had been eager to see, meaning the manuscript, The Course of

        5    Miracles.  And he went to his filing cabinet and took out a key

        6    and opened it up and pulled out seven thesis binders, a pile,

        7    and he put one of them on my lap and the others next to me.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  Hold for one second.

        9             With the Court's indulgence, I'm going to propose a

       10    procedure for this.  So the record is clear, I have on our

       11    counsel table, and the witness will identify, these are the

       12    seven thesis binders that have the manuscript.

       13             It is not my intention to burden the court with all

       14    seven notebooks.  What I would do is we made an excerpt of

       15    about 25 pages from one of the volumes because there may be

       16    issues of different formating, but to give the Court 1500

       17    pages, we didn't think it was necessary.

       18             MR. FABIAN:  I'm not sure we need to authenticate

       19    these documents, but I would ask the Court though if you could

       20    have at least deemed marked the entire transcript because it

       21    seems to be very relevant.  I understand they don't want to

       22    have the Court hold on to it, but we can have it as

       23    representative of it.  But the record will reflect that all

       24    seven binders being 1500 binders.

       25    Q.  By my count we may have eight or nine, are you positive it

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        1    was seven?

        2    A.  I'm positive.

        3             MR. FABIAN:  There are seven.

        4    Q.  How many binders were there?

        5    A.  There were seven they gave me.

        6             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to approach the witness, if

        7    I might.

        8    Q.  I'm going to show you one of the binders.  I haven't picked

        9    it in any particular order and ask you if you can identify what

       10    that is?

       11    A.  Yes, I can.  This is one of the copies of the manuscript,

       12    the original manuscript.

       13    Q.  Is this actually one of the originals?

       14    A.  Yes, it is.

       15    Q.  With all respect, it smells musty.  Where has it been

       16    stored?

       17    A.  I'm afraid it does.  It has traveled many places.

       18    Q.  I'm now placing a different one of these black thesis

       19    binders in front of you, and ask you if you would open it and

       20    tell us what it is?

       21    A.  This is the first of the set of thesis binders that holds A

       22    Course in Miracles, the document in manuscript form.

       23    Q.  Is this one of the number of notebooks that was shown to

       24    you by Dr. Thetford and Dr. Schucman that day?

       25    A.  Thesis binders, yes.

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        1    Q.  These black binders that are piled up here.

        2    A.  Yes.

        3             THE COURT:  Let's mark these.  I take it is going to

        4    be Plaintiff's 3-1 through 3-7.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  What we were hoping is since these are

        6    the originals --

        7             THE COURT:  You're going to keep all of your exhibits.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  We're going to mark these 3 through

        9    however many they are.  I'm going to mark this Exhibit 4.

       10             THE COURT:  These are typical excerpts, I take it?

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'll have the witness identify.

       12    Q.  This is Exhibit 4, Ms. Skutch Whitson, and I would like you

       13    to identify for the Court, this is comparing it to the Exhibit

       14    3-1 notebook that you have in front of you.

       15             Is that the first 25 pages?

       16    A.  Well, yes.

       17    Q.  And it is on eight and a half by 11 inch paper, correct?

       18    A.  It seems to be, yes.

       19    Q.  And this was the form in which you received it that day,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  I received it in this form that day.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  Witness pointing to the thesis binder

       23    3-1.

       24    Q.  Would you concur there is no copyright notice affixed to

       25    either Exhibit 3.1 or 4?

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        1    A.  There is not.

        2    Q.  And that was true on the day that you received the number

        3    of thesis binders in May, correct?

        4    A.  That's correct.

        5    Q.  And each of them were in these heavy, hard black covers

        6    that were shown, it's quite a heavy pile of manuscripts; is

        7    that correct?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  What did you do on May 29th when you were handed -- who

       10    handed it to you?

       11    A.  Dr. Thetford handed it to me.

       12    Q.  What did you do when you received it?

       13    A.  The first thing I did was put this volume on my lap because

       14    I wanted to see what they were talking about.  I opened it up

       15    and saw a huge table of contents just for the volume.  And they

       16    asked me to read the introduction, which I did.  And I just sat

       17    there very moved.

       18    Q.  What's the first two sentences from the first volume here?

       19    A.  This is the introduction.

       20    Q.  Yes.

       21    A.  "This is a Course in Miracles, it is a required course."

       22    Q.  The next line?

       23    A.  "Only the time you take it is voluntary."

       24    Q.  Please go on?

       25    A.  "Free will does not mean that you can establish the

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        1    curriculum.  It means only that you can elect what you want to

        2    take at a given time.  The course does not aim at teaching the

        3    meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught.  It

        4    does aim, however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of

        5    loves' presence, which is your natural inheritance.  The

        6    opposite of love is fear.  What it is all encompassing can have

        7    no opposite.

        8             This course can, therefore, be summed up very simply

        9    in this way.  Nothing real can be threatened; nothing unreal

       10    exists.  Herein, lies the piece of God."

       11    Q.  Did you read that that day?

       12    A.  Yes, I did.

       13    Q.  And what was your reaction?

       14    A.  Something like this.

       15    Q.  Can you described that in --

       16    A.  I was very moved.  I could hardly speak.  It seemed to

       17    speak to me in a way that I recognized.  That's all I can say.

       18    Q.  What did you say to Dr. Thetford, Dr. Shucman, Dr. Dean or

       19    Dr. Wapnick, the assemblers in the office.

       20    A.  Dr. Dean didn't say much at all through the meeting.

       21    Dr. Wapnick was quite silent in the background.  Dr. Schucman

       22    and Dr. Thetford took the lead in the story telling.

       23    Q.  Were you given at that meeting a copy of the manuscript?

       24    A.  Yes, they told me I could take the whole set home and they

       25    gave it to me in a shopping bag.

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        1    Q.  All of these numerous thesis binders?

        2    A.  That's right.

        3    Q.  Were you given any directive by either Dr. Schucman or

        4    Dr. Thetford about what you could or couldn't do with it?

        5             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor.  This is hearsay

        6    that goes directly to the issue of --

        7             THE COURT:  I understand it is hearsay.  Overruled.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  We're not introducing it for the

        9    purpose necessarily of the truth.  It's what instruction was

       10    given which is always outside of the hearsay rule because it

       11    shows people's state of mind and what they are instructing

       12    others.

       13    Q.  Tell us who, if it was Dr. Thetford or Schucman, that said

       14    what you could do with the course?

       15    A.  It was obviously at that point for me alone --

       16    Q.  My question is what did they say to you?

       17    A.  Dr. Thetford said I could take it home overnight and look

       18    at it.  And Dr. Schucman said that that was okay, but I was not

       19    to give it to anybody, and that they would speak with me the

       20    next day.

       21    Q.  Were you married at the time?

       22    A.  Yes, I was.

       23    Q.  To whom?

       24    A.  To Robert Skutch.

       25    Q.  Did your ability or not to show it to Robert Skutch, your

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        1    husband come up at this meeting?

        2    A.  No, it didn't.

        3    Q.  Did you ask whether you could show it to your husband?

        4    A.  I don't believe I did.

        5    Q.  Now, the instructions were you could take it for the night,

        6    you weren't to give it to anyone else, and then you would talk

        7    to them tomorrow?

        8    A.  That's right.

        9    Q.  What did you do when the meeting ended?

       10    A.  Well, I took a taxi home.  They were up on 165th Street in

       11    the Black Building at the time, and I got a taxi and I was very

       12    excited.  And I was so excited that I asked the cab to stop and

       13    wait for me a few moments on Broadway, and I called up my

       14    friend, Dr. Gerald Jampolsky in California.

       15    Q.  Dr. Gerald Jampolsky, another doctor.  What type of doctor

       16    was he in 1975?

       17    A.  A psychiatrist.

       18    Q.  Is he a trained certified psychiatrist?

       19    A.  Oh, yes.

       20    Q.  Do you know what institution he attended?

       21    A.  Yes, he went to Stanford.

       22    Q.  Did you have a collegial dealings with Dr. Jampolsky prior

       23    to this date?

       24    A.  Yes, he had a very deep interest in this field.  I had met

       25    him at a conference on parapsychology.  He asked whether my

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        1    daughter could be a subject in some of his work, and whether he

        2    could work with some of the people in California that we worked

        3    with like Maimonides Hospital in New York City.

        4    Q.  What was your purpose of calling Dr. Jampolsky on this cab

        5    ride?  You actually asked the cab driver to pull over to the

        6    side of the road.  What was the purpose of the phone call?

        7    A.  Well, it was dual purpose really.  Number one, I was so

        8    excited I couldn't contain my enthusiasm; and number two, he

        9    was the best person I knew to give me an assessment, number

       10    one, on the story I just heard, and number two on some of the

       11    material.  And I actually read him a portion of the teacher's

       12    manual on the telephone.

       13    Q.  How much did you read him?

       14    A.  Maybe a page or two.

       15    Q.  You didn't show it to him?

       16    A.  He was in California.

       17    Q.  He didn't have a copy at this point?

       18    A.  No.

       19    Q.  What did you say to Dr. Jampolsky during this phone call,

       20    and what did he say to you?

       21    A.  Well, from what I remember, I said to him that this was

       22    extremely exciting to me, and I felt that I had been given

       23    something that was going to be for the rest of my life.  And

       24    from what I remember, he noted on the telephone number, one, he

       25    had a patient waiting, and, number two, that I'm enthusiastic

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    about a lot of things.

        2    Q.  He was in some ways teasing you, well, you're always

        3    enthusiastic?

        4    A.  Yes, and he said he would really like to see it to examine

        5    it and how soon could I get to California.

        6    Q.  Did you have authorization at that time, May 29th, to show

        7    that manuscript to Dr. Jampolsky?

        8    A.  To show it to him, no, I did not.

        9    Q.  Was there anything else of substance that you can recall

       10    being discussed?

       11    A.  No, I cannot.

       12    Q.  What did you do next?

       13    A.  I went to my apartment in New York City with --

       14    Q.  You went to your apartment?

       15    A.  With the seven thesis binders in a shopping bag, and I

       16    started to read them.

       17    Q.  Was anyone else home at the apartment?

       18    A.  At that moment, no.

       19    Q.  What happened next that evening in regards to this

       20    manuscript you had been given?

       21    A.  Well, my husband came home from work, and I think my

       22    daughter probably came home from her music lesson and I made

       23    dinner.

       24    Q.  How old was your daughter?

       25    A.  She was 16.

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        1    Q.  And did you discuss this with your husband or your

        2    daughter?

        3    A.  I told my husband that I had received this manuscript and

        4    he saw the thesis binders I was very excited by it, and he

        5    looked at it and he was not interested.

        6    Q.  Did he read any portion or anything more than looking at

        7    the cover?

        8    A.  Like that.

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  Witness, your Honor, opened the

       10    manuscript, shook his head and closed the manuscript.

       11    Q.  That's what your husband did?

       12    A.  Yes.

       13    Q.  Other than the little glance that you described, did he

       14    read the manuscript?

       15    A.  No.

       16    Q.  What did you do next that evening in respect to the course?

       17    A.  I read, I read, and I read for a good bit of the night.  I

       18    stayed up very, very late.  And I can't say I understood what I

       19    read, but it reinforced the reading to me of the impact of the

       20    document, and that this was something that I had to go through.

       21    Q.  And you testified earlier that when you left Dr. Schucman

       22    and Dr. Thetford that they said you could have it for one night

       23    and you were to meet with them again the following day?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  Did that happen?

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        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  Where did you meet?

        3    A.  To the best of my recollection in our apartment on Central

        4    Park West and 81st Street.

        5    Q.  Who was present at this meeting?

        6    A.  Dr. Kenneth Wapnick, Dr. Helen Schucman and Dr. William

        7    Thetford.

        8    Q.  Did you have an understanding at this time from what they

        9    told you of what Dr. Wapnick's role was in this group?

       10    A.  I don't think at that time I really did understand.  He was

       11    a colleague and, obviously, very deeply involved in this but he

       12    didn't say much.

       13    Q.  Later you learned of his role and involvement?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  You understand that Dr. Wapnick will appear in this Court

       16    later in the proceeding?

       17    A.  I certainly do.

       18    Q.  Tell us what happened at the meeting; what happened and who

       19    said what and what your response was?

       20    A.  It was a fairly enthusiastic on my part discussion telling

       21    them how the bit that I read was so moving to me, and I was in

       22    awe of how she, Helen, could possibly receive this material and

       23    how she could write it down and type it up after all of those

       24    years.  That that type of focus and commitment was quite

       25    startling to me, and that I had read a great many of this type

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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