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             35lMpenT                 Rice - cross

        1    and had E-mails and everything.

        2    Q.  And he was asked:

        3    "Q.  Do you remember talking the last couple of months with the

        4    unity minister by the name of Kevin Rice?"

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's page 34, line 23.

        6    A.  I'm not a unity minister.

        7    Q.  I'm reading Mr. Fabian's question.

        8    A.  Just to qualify.

        9    Q.  "ANSWER:  Unity Minister Kevin Rice, is he local in this

       10    area?

       11    "Q.  Yes, I believe he is."

       12             Mr. Mitchell under oath states at page 25:  I talked

       13    with the -- with the unity, a member.  I can't remember whether

       14    it was Reverend Rice or one of his congregation that called me

       15    relative to a speaking engagement, but I can't remember exactly

       16    who called me.

       17    "Q.  So he said it was relative to a speaking engagement?

       18    Okay.  And do you remember having a conversation with this

       19    person about A Course In Miracles and you're having received A

       20    Course In Miracles from Judy Skutch?

       21    "A.  In September of 2001 -- I don't remember that conversation

       22    with him."

       23             I am going to assume without conceding for purposes of

       24    my exam that the conversation took place.  I'm only assuming

       25    that.

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             35lMpenT                 Rice - cross

        1             Now, you testified -- when did you get your copy of A

        2    Course In Miracles that you talked about from this person.

        3    A.  Psychiatrist?

        4    Q.  Yes.

        5    A.  I got that in probably 1991.

        6    Q.  So in a published book form?

        7    A.  Absolutely.

        8    Q.  You weren't part of this in the 1970s, manuscripts, copies?

        9    A.  Absolutely not.

       10    Q.  So you testified that Edgar Mitchell told you he that he

       11    received the manuscript from Judy Skutch?

       12    A.  That's correct.

       13    Q.  No doubt about it?

       14    A.  No doubt about it.

       15    Q.  And you testified that you asked him, was it before 1975?

       16    A.  And he specifically said 1973.

       17    Q.  Were you aware, sir, of two things, that based on every

       18    piece of information, every piece of literature and all the

       19    testimony that Judy Skutch never even received the course until

       20    May 29, 1975?  Are you aware of that?

       21    A.  No.  But nevertheless --

       22    Q.  I just asked if you were aware of that?

       23    A.  I'm not.

       24    Q.  Are you aware that Dr. Mitchell was asked at his

       25    deposition, on page 24 by Mr. Fabian:

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35lMpenT                 Rice - cross

        1    "Q.  Did you discuss it with any third parties at or about that

        2    time in 1975?

        3    "A.  No, no.  Judy was the one carrying the ball on discussing

        4    it, and I only discussed it with her."

        5             Dr. Mitchell testified, sir, that he didn't get to

        6    discuss the course with Judy until 1975?  Yes or no.  Are you

        7    aware of that?

        8    A.  No.

        9    Q.  Judy Skutch testified that she didn't receive the course

       10    until 1975 in May.  Are you aware of that?

       11    A.  I'm not aware of any testimony in this case.

       12    Q.  Dr. Kenneth Wapnick testified that Judy Skutch didn't get

       13    the course until 1975.  Are you aware of that?

       14    A.  I'm not aware of that, no.

       15    Q.  Dr. Edgar Mitchell testified that he never heard of the

       16    course and never discussed it with Judy or anyone until 1975.

       17    Are you aware of that?

       18    A.  All I'm aware of is he told me 1973.

       19    Q.  That is your testimony?

       20    A.  That is my testimony.

       21    Q.  Thank you, sir.  I appreciate you being here.

       22             MR. FABIAN:  No further questions.

       23             THE COURT:  Thank you.

       24             (Witness excused)

       25             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, if we might have a moment to

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        1    discuss the order of any other witnesses.

        2             Your Honor, may we have a couple of minutes to talk

        3    about for a couple of minutes.

        4             THE COURT:  We will have a five-minute recess.

        5             (Recess)

        6             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, may we approach or would you

        7    like to do it on the record?

        8             THE COURT:  Tell me what you want to tell me.

        9             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, at this point the defendants

       10    have no further witnesses.

       11             THE COURT:  Anything further from the plaintiff?

       12             MR. ROSENBERG:  Not by way of witnesses or evidence.

       13    There is some details to be attended to, but no further

       14    witnesses or exhibits.

       15             Couple of matters.  Mr. Fabian, for the defendants, we

       16    now learn, filed a pretrial memorandum through inadvertence.

       17    Larry and I get along fine.  We never got a copy and we were

       18    unaware it got filed.

       19             THE COURT:  It was a secret memorandum.

       20             MR. ROSENBERG:  It was channeled, I understood, and it

       21    was a guilty secret.  We are going to get a copy.  However,

       22    interestingly, we had sort of prepared -- I don't know if we

       23    are going to use it -- a two-page summary of the particularly

       24    pertinent cases in this area.  And I wonder if in lieu of a

       25    pretrial memorandum and you'll excuse --

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        1             THE COURT:  How many depositions are you going to

        2    mark?  Let's do that.  Identify the depositions so we have a

        3    record.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  The ones we are going to submit to your

        5    Honor?

        6             THE COURT:  Yes.

        7             MR. FABIAN:  Is it your suggestion that they be

        8    underlined with the words objection next to it?

        9             THE COURT:  I don't care.  You can do it any way you

       10    want, but you should -- you can submit something to me later,

       11    if you wish, or you can do it now.  Just tell me what the

       12    deposition is and what the lines are that you want me to read.

       13    And I take it that there are objections and I don't think it's

       14    necessary to have rulings on those objections.  I'll just read

       15    it.  And if there is an objection and I think it's right, then

       16    I will disregard --

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  Will you instruct yourself to

       18    disregard?

       19             THE COURT:  I will instruct myself.

       20             MR. FABIAN:  That's acceptable to us, your Honor.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  You don't need the names today?  We

       22    can just get these submissions to you.

       23             THE COURT:  I think it ought to be on the record so

       24    there is no ifs, ands and buts.

       25             MR. FABIAN:  We are not going to be able to give you

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        1    the lines of the transcripts, but we will list the witnesses.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  Because particularly -- I mean no

        3    criticism for defendants, but there are so many.

        4             Plaintiff intends to designate portions of the

        5    following deposition transcripts.

        6             THE COURT:  Let's do it this way, just so that we have

        7    the record straight.  We will take then as the exhibits -- do

        8    we have a 19?

        9             For the plaintiff, who?

       10             MR. ROSENBERG:  We are going to designate Eleanor

       11    Criswell, her deposition, Father Benedict Groeschel, Russell

       12    Targ, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, and Dr. Gerald Jampolsky.

       13             Of course, we do reserve the right, if defendants

       14    designate on theirs by counterdesignations the ones they

       15    designate, and I'm sure Mr. Fabian makes the same reservation.

       16             THE COURT:  I'll take those.  That's 19, 20, 21, 22

       17    and 23.

       18             MR. FABIAN:  That would be X and we would designate

       19    portions of testimony from David Hurt, James Hickman, Robert

       20    Skutch.  I had on here Kevin Todeschi, but that's not necessary

       21    as the testimony has come in.  Of course, I guess, if there is

       22    any testimony that comes in from their witnesses, we would put

       23    in the --

       24             THE COURT:  Sure.  Hurt will be X, Y will be Hickman,

       25    Z will be Skutch.  And you all will submit to me --

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1             MR. FABIAN:  I'm sorry, your Honor.  We had intended

        2    to call as a witness but he didn't come, but we will have

        3    deposition testimony from Osmond Crosby.

        4             THE COURT:  AA will be Osmond Crosby.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  What time frame realistic --

        6             THE COURT:  What do you want to do?  When do you want

        7    to submit proposed findings and conclusions?  If you think I am

        8    going to do any more work than is absolutely necessary, you're

        9    crazy.  You got into this mess, so you can jolly well try to

       10    get out of it.

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  I would think we would need trial

       12    transcripts to do correct findings in my experience because you

       13    are going to refer to testimony.

       14             THE COURT:  Of course.  You can have those in two

       15    days, if you want to pay for them, which you will.

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  We will, your Honor.

       17             MR. FABIAN:  We will, your Honor.  We shall.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  Does your Honor have a preference?

       19             THE COURT:  This is your game.  You tell me what you

       20    want to do.  If I don't like it, I'll tell you.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Approximately two weeks for deposition

       22    designations, if that's acceptable.  And I would say -- four

       23    weeks in total after our receipt of the transcripts for

       24    proposed findings and conclusions, if that's acceptable to the

       25    Court.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1             THE COURT:  My suggestion would be, if you want any

        2    further briefings, whether you do or you don't, I don't care.

        3    You decide when you want to do those and fire at the same time.

        4    Then we will have a final argument on this on June 25.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Could I just check my calendar?

        6             THE COURT:  You can check your calendar, but it won't

        7    make any difference.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'll check it anyway.  That's a

        9    delightful date and I know you're going to be very flexible.  I

       10    want to tell you, that's okay with me.

       11             THE COURT:  Actually, we can talk a little bit about

       12    what time during that week.  But let's shoot for, in terms of

       13    exchanges, et cetera, et cetera on the 25th.

       14             MR. FABIAN:  Fine.

       15             THE COURT:  The argument will be probably at 2:00,

       16    depending upon if I have a trial scheduled.  That may impact

       17    it.  But that's what we will plan for.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  June 25, correct, your Honor.

       19             MR. FABIAN:  We are talking about proposed findings of

       20    fact.  The law, if we want to give you memos --

       21             THE COURT:  All of that stuff.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  My experience has been proposed

       23    findings of fact and proposed conclusions of law.  Would that

       24    be acceptable?

       25             THE COURT:  Sure.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1             MR. FABIAN:  When we give you proposed conclusions, do

        2    you want us to give you citations as well related to our

        3    proposed conclusions?

        4             THE COURT:  Obviously, you are going to give me the

        5    authorities you rely on either by brief or by whatever way is

        6    easiest for you.

        7             Anything else?

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  Our understanding is, it's two weeks

        9    for the deposition transcripts, four weeks from our receipt of

       10    the transcripts for proposed findings and conclusions -- it's

       11    four weeks from today with the assumption we will have the

       12    transcripts by early next week, and then the hearing on the

       13    25th.  I would suggest that any briefs --

       14             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Forgive me.  I'm in the wrong

       15    bloody year.  No, I'm not.  June 25 is a Wednesday.

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  What's the Court's practice?  I know

       17    during the trial we kept our exhibits.

       18             THE COURT:  You keep them, but give me a full set.  In

       19    other words, you keep the original exhibits.  That's your

       20    responsibility.  But please give me a full set.  You can check

       21    with my clerk.  I think I probably already have everything.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  Except for a lot of the books.  You

       23    don't want seven volumes?

       24             THE COURT:  No.

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  We will have a representative

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        1    selection.  For example, here is a book.  We will have the

        2    first 25 pages with the cover.

        3             THE COURT:  That's not necessary.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  If you have some original exhibits, may

        5    we take them back then?

        6             THE COURT:  You can, if you wish, but you should just

        7    give me a set.

        8             MR. FABIAN:  We will get them together and get a set

        9    over to you then.

       10             THE COURT:  Parenthetically, while we are on the

       11    record, let me say I'm very grateful to you.  It's not an easy

       12    case.  It's difficult for all kinds of complicated reasons.

       13    But you all certainly presented it very professionally and very

       14    clearly and effectively, and I'm very grateful to you for that,

       15    and I would like to see you for a moment in the robing room.

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  Thank you for saying that, your Honor.

       17             (Trial concluded)









                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1                          INDEX OF EXAMINATION

        2    Examination of:                               Page

        3    KENNETH WAPNICK

        4    Cross By Mr. Fabian  . . . . . . . . . . . .   418

        5    Redirect By Mr. Rosenberg  . . . . . . . . .   437

        6    ANNE PURYEAR

        7    Direct By Mr. Fabian . . . . . . . . . . . .   453

        8    Cross By Mr. Rosenberg . . . . . . . . . . .   460

        9    Redirect By Mr. Fabian . . . . . . . . . . .   469

       10    Recross By Mr. Rosenberg . . . . . . . . . .   470

       11    KEVIN RICE

       12    Direct By Mr. Fabian . . . . . . . . . . . .   470

       13    Cross By Mr. Rosenberg . . . . . . . . . . .   479













                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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