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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    was Hugh Lynn Cayce in in 1970?

        2    A.  He was president of the ARE.  And the ARE was devoted to

        3    promulgating, preserving and teaching the messages of Edgar

        4    Cayce, his father, which was spiritual messages.

        5    Q.  How would that tie into an interest on his part in seeing

        6    early manuscripts of the course?

        7             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor.

        8    Q.  What were you advised, if anything, about why Hugh Lynn

        9    Cayce was interested in an early version of the course?

       10    A.  Well, I was aware of Hugh Lynn's work and the ARE's work

       11    which had to do with healing, which had to do with forgiveness,

       12    which had to do with spirituality, which had to do with

       13    Christianity, which were all important things of the course, as

       14    well as the transition of the course, which was similar to his

       15    father's work.

       16    Q.  Meaning the transmission of how the material came to

       17    Dr. Shucman?

       18    A.  That's correct.

       19    Q.  Coincident with the type of work that Edgar Cayce had done,

       20    and that's Hugh Lynn Cayce's father?

       21             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor.  He is just

       22    leading the witness and telling him what to say.

       23             MR. ROSENBERG:  Those are two different things.

       24             MR. FABIAN:  I'm objecting on both bases.

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'll rephrase.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  What does Dr. Thetford say in the first sentence of the

        2    last paragraph of the letter?

        3    A.  You have been very generous with your time.  And this

        4    material is not intended to add to your burdens.

        5    Q.  Continue.

        6    A.  You had, however, expressed an interest in seeing this

        7    latest form of the manuscript.

        8    Q.  And finally --

        9    A.  We hope that if you find the material of sufficient

       10    interest that we will have a chance to discuss it with you

       11    again.

       12    Q.  To discuss it with you again, correct?

       13    A.  That's correct.

       14    Q.  The next letter in this Exhibit D is actually from Hugh

       15    Lynn Cayce dated September 1, 1970, correct?

       16    A.  That's correct.

       17    Q.  In the second paragraph Hugh Lynn Cayce says to

       18    Dr. Thetford, as I told you before, I will also be most

       19    interested in seeing a copy of the workbook.  Have I read that

       20    correctly?

       21    A.  Yes, you have.

       22    Q.  And in the next to last paragraph or the penultimate

       23    paragraph Mr. Cayce says:  Could we get together for a luncheon

       24    or dinner and have a preliminary discussion.  Any discussion of

       25    material with this range and depth can only be spoken of in

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    terms of one conversation as a preliminary.

        2             Did I read that correctly?

        3    A.  Yes, you did.

        4    Q.  Based on your conversations with Dr. Thetford and

        5    Dr. Shucman, what is your understanding, based on those

        6    conversations?  I'll rephrase it.  What did they tell you was

        7    going on about your interchange with Hugh Lynn Cayce?

        8    A.  They told me that they found him most interested in the

        9    material, most interested in Helen and the phenomenon of her

       10    scribing, and he was interested in learning more about it.

       11    Q.  On September 8, 1970, the next letter, Dr. Thetford writes

       12    to Mr. Cayce and says in the second paragraph:  We hope that

       13    you will find the retyped version of the manuscript somewhat

       14    easier to follow, correct?

       15    A.  That's correct.

       16    Q.  And what does he say in the last paragraph?  What does

       17    Dr. Thetford say to Hugh Lynn Cayce?

       18    A.  As always, we are most grateful for your thoughtful

       19    interest, time and help.

       20    Q.  Interest, time, and help?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  And the final letter -- the next to last exhibit or page of

       23    this Exhibit D is a November 18, 1970 letter from Dr. Thetford

       24    to Hugh Lynn Cayce, correct?

       25    A.  That's correct.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  And the first paragraph Dr. Thetford tells Mr. Cayce in the

        2    third sentence:  We appreciate your finding time in your busy

        3    schedule to see us, as well as the thoughtful and extensive

        4    consideration you have given to the bulky manuscript.  Is that

        5    correct?

        6    A.  That is correct.

        7    Q.  He refers to thoughtful and extensive consideration, is

        8    that right?

        9    A.  That's correct, yes.

       10    Q.  In the next paragraph there is a suggestion that Helen and

       11    Bill meet with Dr. Puryear and Hugh Lynn Cayce and Hugh Lynn

       12    Cayce's son, correct?

       13    A.  That is correct.

       14    Q.  What does Bill Thetford say in the last sentence of that

       15    second paragraph?

       16    A.  We look forward to any further comments or suggestions

       17    which you may wish to offer individually or collectively.

       18    Q.  Collectively, referring to Hugh Lynn Cayce?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  Dr. Puryear, who was at ARE, correct?

       21    A.  Um-hum.

       22    Q.  And Mr. Cayce's son?

       23    A.  Correct.

       24    Q.  It's saying:  We look forward to comments or suggestions

       25    which you may wish to offer individually or collectively,

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    correct?

        2    A.  That's correct.

        3    Q.  In the final letter that's a part of Exhibit D Hugh Lynn

        4    Cayce writes to Dr. Thetford, says:  It was good to see Helen

        5    and Dr. Thetford in New York, correct?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  And he says:  I have passed this manuscript on to

        8    Dr. Puryear and Charles Thomas, my son.  Just as soon as they

        9    have had time to dig into it, I'll write you again and we will

       10    set up some time for a five-way conversation.  I think it would

       11    be an advantage in interest to us all.  Have I read that

       12    correctly?

       13    A.  Yes, you have.

       14    Q.  And what did Helen and Bill tell you was going on with this

       15    exchange with ARE concerning an earlier draft of the

       16    manuscript?

       17    A.  Just that there had been discussion about it and they were

       18    obviously interested in the manuscript.

       19    Q.  And do you have any knowledge that Hugh Lynn Cayce,

       20    Mr. Puryear or anyone ever disseminated the early transcript

       21    outside of ARE?

       22    A.  I have no knowledge of that at all.

       23    Q.  Have you ever met Dr. Puryear?

       24    A.  I don't believe I have.  I've been down there a few times

       25    to the area, but I don't believe I have ever met him.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  But you described yesterday, to put it in context now that

        2    we are going through these letters, where, from your own

        3    observation, is the earlier version of this manuscript

        4    maintained?

        5    A.  We call it the Hugh Lynn version, which was the one given

        6    to Hugh Lynn Cayce, was in a locked room in the library at the

        7    ARE.

        8    Q.  You testified to some observations that had been made that

        9    when Helen mentioned that she wanted the work copyrighted you

       10    thought that was out of character.  Remember that?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  And it had not been in your mind the original intent to

       13    copyright it, is that correct?

       14    A.  Yes, that's correct.

       15    Q.  What was the original intent prior to this discussion on

       16    copyright about disseminating the course?

       17    A.  Very little discussion, actually.  This was never something

       18    Helen, Bill or I really had thought about.

       19    Q.  Did Helen ever indicate to you prior to the copyright

       20    discussion -- by the way, Ms. Skutch -- do you have a

       21    recollection, your own recollection, of when that conversation

       22    about copyright took place?

       23             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor.  Now having stated

       24    the date that Ms. Skutch Whitson --

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  I caught myself and rephrase the

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    question.

        2    Q.  What's your recollection of the date when copyright was

        3    discussed?

        4    A.  It would have been between the time we had met Judy, which

        5    is the end of May, and before our trip out to the west coast,

        6    which was in July.

        7    Q.  So it's either in June or early July?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  Which is fundamentally within one month of your meeting

       10    Judy?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  There is now a discussion about copyright?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  While it might have seemed out of character, was there any

       15    objection or resistance to Dr. Shucman's suggestion that the

       16    book be copyrighted?

       17    A.  No, none at all.

       18    Q.  There was some talk about this book by Maryann Williamson.

       19    This is a 1992 book that Maryann Williamson wrote, is that

       20    correct?

       21    A.  That's correct.

       22    Q.  Long after A Course In Miracles had been copyrighted?

       23    A.  That's correct.

       24    Q.  What was the dispute that arose, if you recall, or

       25    remember?

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    A.  That Maryann had taken perhaps inadvertently many, many

        2    statements from the course.  I think it was up to 78 or 80,

        3    with no attribution so that someone reading the book would

        4    surmise that it was Maryann who was saying these words when

        5    indeed they were taken straight out of the course.

        6    Q.  Stated another way, she quoted the course, but with no

        7    quotation marks, as though they were her own words?

        8    A.  That's correct.

        9    Q.  Did the Foundation for Inner Peace or the Foundation for A

       10    Course In Miracles acquiesce in that?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  What did they do?

       13    A.  We spoke to the attorneys of the publisher, and it was

       14    resolved.  And then subsequent editions that had the proper

       15    attribution.

       16    Q.  So FIP and FACIM stood up for their copyright?

       17    A.  Absolutely.

       18    Q.  And the later edition as part of the resolution had to

       19    quote the course as quotes and attributed?

       20    A.  That's correct.

       21    Q.  And that was in your view a fair compromise?

       22    A.  Yes, it was.

       23    Q.  Allowed the material to be disseminated as Ms. Williamson

       24    wanted it, correct?

       25    A.  That's correct.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  And protected the copyright?

        2    A.  That's correct.

        3    Q.  Does FACIM or FIP ever want any more than that that kind of

        4    fair compromise?

        5    A.  I don't think so, no.

        6    Q.  I want to ask you one other little section here.  You have

        7    testified that there was a high level of secretness about this

        8    whole process when you were first involved?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  Did your parents know what you were doing?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  Why?

       13    A.  Helen told me not to tell them.  I was spending a lot of

       14    time with them.  I was actually working at the medical center,

       15    and my mother and Helen had indeed become friendly.  But Helen

       16    did not want me to say anything about the course.

       17    Q.  Did she allow you, without mentioning her name, to show it

       18    to your mother?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  And your own mother, did you at that time?

       21    A.  I'm sorry?

       22    Q.  Did you show it to your mother anyway at that time?

       23    A.  No, of course not.

       24    Q.  Why?

       25    A.  Helen asked me not to, so I wouldn't do that.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  So you have this secretness, but yet on May 29 Judy Skutch

        2    comes up to the office in Columbia, correct?

        3    A.  That's correct.

        4    Q.  And within an hour or two hours or four hours, but that day

        5    she is actually given the manuscript?

        6    A.  That's correct.

        7    Q.  How do you reconcile secretness with giving the manuscript

        8    to someone that Helen just met?

        9    A.  Well, it was obvious, I think, even from that afternoon

       10    that Judy shared our interest, obviously shared the same

       11    perspective, spiritual perspective.  There was a personal

       12    resonance, what the Italians say simpatico, among all of us,

       13    and we had been expecting a next step.  And Helen intuitively

       14    understood that she recognized in Judy that she was the next

       15    step.

       16    Q.  If Helen had sensed or felt intuitively or otherwise that

       17    Judy wasn't simpatico, wasn't the right person, would she have

       18    been given the copy?

       19    A.  Absolutely not.

       20             MR. FABIAN:  Objection, your Honor.

       21    Q.  Was Helen teaching at this time?

       22    A.  At the university?

       23    Q.  Yes.

       24    A.  At Columbia?  No.

       25    Q.  Was she part of a faculty at Columbia?

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  How many people worked in her department?

        3    A.  She was -- in the department I would say four or five

        4    people under her, and then there was a larger department.

        5    Q.  Other than Calvin Hatcher, who you have described, did

        6    Helen give it to these other people --

        7    A.  No one else knew in the medical center.

        8    Q.  You talked about out in California that session out at

        9    Broadway, that reception, correct?

       10    A.  Um-hum.

       11    Q.  How many people do you remember being there?

       12    A.  I don't remember.  Maybe 30, 35.

       13    Q.  How many of those did Helen give a copy of the manuscript

       14    to?

       15    A.  None.

       16    Q.  Helen interacted with people every day, from your own

       17    personal observation?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  Dozens and dozens of people over the years?

       20    A.  Um-hum.

       21    Q.  Other than the select group of people who were interested

       22    that you've talked about, how many manuscripts did she give to

       23    those?

       24    A.  None.

       25    Q.  Never once?

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        1    A.  No, never.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  Nothing further.

        3             MR. FABIAN:  Nothing further, your Honor.

        4             THE COURT:  Doctor, do I understand correctly that

        5    your foundation holds the copyright?

        6             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

        7             THE COURT:  What is the involvement of Penguin and

        8    Inner Peace?

        9             THE WITNESS:  There was a contract signed between the

       10    Foundation for Inner Peace and Penguin for a five-year contract

       11    that they would publish the course.  That has subsequently

       12    expired.  It was not renewed.

       13             MR. ROSENBERG:  If I could clarify.  At the beginning

       14    of the litigation Penguin was the exclusive licensee for

       15    certain territories.  Foundation for Inner Peace was the

       16    copyright holder.

       17             During the course of litigation the Penguin agreement

       18    expired; hence, they are no longer a party, and there was a

       19    written assignment recorded at the copyright office of the

       20    copyright from a Foundation for Inner Peace to Foundation for A

       21    Course In Miracles.  And my understanding is -- I'm happy to

       22    make inquiry that there was an exclusive license granted back

       23    for Foundation for Inner Peace to publish the book.

       24             THE COURT:  None of which I have.

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  I believe it's all before you on the

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        1    summary judgment submissions.  So those issues, again, were

        2    addressed and had been presented.  I'm sorry.  I didn't make

        3    that clear in this presentation.

        4             THE COURT:  A function of age, apparently.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Mine perhaps, your Honor.

        6             THE COURT:  No.  Mine.

        7             Thanks very much, Doctor.

        8             (Witness excused)

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, while we are the

       10    plaintiffs, as we discussed at the beginning, the burden in

       11    this procedural posture is on the defendants, so I am not going

       12    to say that the plaintiffs rest exactly because I'm not sure

       13    that's the right phrase in this posture, but we have concluded

       14    our initial presentation.  I believe we have moved into

       15    evidence all of the exhibits.

       16             MR. FABIAN:  I think that's correct.

       17             Your Honor, just so the record is clear, we are

       18    prepared to go forward on that basis.

       19             THE COURT:  Fine.

       20             MR. FABIAN:  It's our understanding -- and I've

       21    represented to the Court that as we are dealing with this one

       22    affirmative defense and as Mr. Rosenberg quite clearly pointed

       23    out, you have before you a number of things in the summary

       24    judgment papers talking about who and what the church is and so

       25    forth.  We are not going to present a witness to kind of say

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        1    here is what the church is and here is what took place, if

        2    that's okay with the Court, for the sake of time.

        3             As a result, we will call just a few brief witnesses

        4    and rely upon to a great extent the documents introduced, the

        5    cross-examination, and, of course, the transcripts which we

        6    will be submitting to your Honor of the depositions.

        7             I'll go get our first witness, who I believe will be

        8    Anne Puryear, your Honor.

        9     ANNE PURYEAR,

       10         called as a witness by the Defendant,

       11         having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


       13    BY MR. FABIAN:

       14    Q.  Ms. Puryear, good morning, I'm Larry Fabian.

       15             Do you recall the first time we met at all?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  When was that?

       18    A.  Today.

       19    Q.  But we did speak on the phone prior to that, did we not?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  I believe we spoke last night?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  Ms. Puryear, are you the wife of Herbert Puryear?

       24    A.  I am.

       25    Q.  When were you first married to him?

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             35lMpenT                 Puryear - direct

        1    A.  Christmas Day 1982.

        2    Q.  Now, could you just briefly describe for the Court your

        3    educational and business background so we can have some sense

        4    of who you are?

        5    A.  My husband and I are founders and directors of the Logo

        6    Center in Scottsdale.  I'm an ordained minister since 1974, and

        7    gestalt therapist and an author of a couple of books.

        8    Q.  The books, what are the subject matter of these books that

        9    you've published?

       10    A.  One of them is a spiritual book.  Another one is on teenage

       11    suicide.

       12    Q.  I assume -- strike that.

       13             Are you familiar with a book called A Course In

       14    Miracles?

       15    A.  I am.

       16    Q.  And when did you first become familiar with that book?

       17    A.  The very first time I think was somewhere in about 1972,

       18    '73, '74, somewhere in there when I heard about it.

       19    Q.  Now, how did you happen to hear about the course in that

       20    period of time?

       21    A.  I was studying for the ministry.  And the directors of the

       22    school talked about a manuscript that had been dictated by

       23    Jesus.  And everybody was excited about it and wanted to see if

       24    they could get a copy of it, but it -- there were no copies

       25    available.

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             35lMpenT                 Puryear - direct

        1    Q.  What school was that where you heard this?

        2    A.  It was the National School of Spiritual Science in

        3    Washington, D.C.

        4    Q.  Do you recall the names of any of your teachers or

        5    professors who were talking about it at the time?

        6    A.  Henry and Diane Nagorka.

        7    Q.  Do you recall what they said as best you can about the

        8    course at that time?

        9    A.  Just that it had been channeled through a woman and it was

       10    words directly from Jesus of the Bible.

       11    Q.  And I assume you did not get a copy of the course during

       12    that time period?

       13    A.  No.

       14    Q.  When for the first time did you get a copy of the course?

       15    A.  After it was already published.

       16    Q.  Do you recall approximately when that was?

       17    A.  About 19 -- between '77 and '79, somewhere in there.

       18    Q.  And did you become a reader of A Course In Miracles?

       19    A.  I read some of it.  It was not that easy to read.  I would

       20    read some and then I would not read for a while and then I

       21    would read it again.

       22    Q.  Are you familiar with the name Judith Skutch Whitson or

       23    perhaps Judith Skutch or perhaps Judith Whitson?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  When did you first become familiar with that individual or

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             35lMpenT                 Puryear - direct

        1    her name?

        2    A.  I had heard about her when I was on staff at the ARE

        3    medical clinic in Phoenix, and how she dedicated she was in

        4    getting this information out.  So I had just heard about her.

        5    I had not met her then.

        6    Q.  When you say you were on the ARE medical staff in Phoenix,

        7    about what time was that?

        8    A.  I was on staff from 1977 until 1981.

        9    Q.  And is that ARE, the one that's --

       10    A.  It's the medical research division of the ARE in Virginia

       11    Beach.

       12    Q.  Did there come a time when you actually met Judith Skutch

       13    Whitson?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  When was that?

       16    A.  Around May of 1983.

       17    Q.  And how do you happen to recall that date?

       18    A.  We were in San Francisco.  My husband was doing a

       19    conference, I was speaking at Canada College, and we had just

       20    been certified in scuba, and we were going to Maui for our

       21    first dive.

       22    Q.  Did you in fact meet Judith Skutch Whitson at that time?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  Could you describe, first, the circumstances of your

       25    meeting and where it took place?

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             35lMpenT                 Puryear - direct

        1    A.  We met at a restaurant.  There were four of us, Herb and I

        2    and Bill Whitson and Judy Skutch.

        3    Q.  And did you have dinner there or just drinks?  What took

        4    place?

        5    A.  We had dinner.

        6    Q.  Did have you drinks at that time?

        7    A.  I don't drink.  My husband probably had a glass of wine.

        8    Q.  So do you have any recollection of the conversations that

        9    took place during the course of that restaurant meeting?

       10    A.  I do.

       11    Q.  And just in general, was this an event -- this restaurant

       12    meeting, was it an event that you were looking forward to or

       13    just another social occasion?

       14    A.  We would meet with people all over the country, but this

       15    one was particularly interesting to me because I had heard so

       16    much about Judy Skutch and A Course In Miracles and was

       17    interested in the whole story.

       18             And one reason I remember the conversation so well,

       19    she started out by saying, we had just been married a few

       20    months.  She said Herb looks so happy.  I have never seen him

       21    look so relaxed and so happy.  You're good for him.

       22    Q.  Nice way to start the evening?

       23    A.  Yes.  I'll always remember her for that.

       24    Q.  Do you recall approximately how long the dinner took place?

       25    A.  I think probably a couple of hours.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



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        1    Q.  Was there any just general social conversation as we might

        2    describe it?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  Catching up on people you knew and so forth?

        5    A.  That kind of thing, right.

        6    Q.  Were there any discussions concerning A Course In Miracles

        7    and how it came back or anything to that effect?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  And do you recall, if you would, what was -- was anything

       10    said by Judith Skutch Whitson at that time?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  And as best you could, please tell the Court what you

       13    recall Judith Skutch Whitson said concerning the course.

       14    A.  Well, I had asked her a lot of questions about it because

       15    we had heard so much information secondhand, and I wanted to

       16    hear it straight from her about the course, and she said that

       17    Helen and Bill had wanted it to get out to people, but they

       18    didn't want their name associated with it.  I think it had

       19    something to do with their employment, their jobs.  I think I

       20    remember that.

       21             But we discussed how copies were made and distributed.

       22    And I was talking about a book I was writing at that time and

       23    lecturing that I was doing and how I handed out copies of

       24    things that I was going to use in a book I was writing.  And

       25    she said, there was never a plan to copyright the book, but

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



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        1    then we realized that we had to do it.  But she described the

        2    whole thing about how Helen listened.  And I found that

        3    interesting, because I listen in a similar way.

        4    Q.  Do you recall anything else about the course at that time

        5    that was discussed about the course?

        6    A.  Well, that it was from Jesus.  We were all excited about

        7    that and how many people it was helping and how people were so

        8    excited when it first came out that they gave out copies and

        9    those people made copies, and then groups formed and studied

       10    those copies.  I had heard those stories from people I knew.

       11    Q.  Did Judith Skutch Whitson say these words to you?

       12    A.  No.  She said they made copies in the beginning, that Helen

       13    mainly wanted the information to get out to people.  That was

       14    her desire.

       15    Q.  And anything else you recall concerning the evening?

       16    A.  Well, I said that that's my desire, too, because I was

       17    handing out things that later went in the book that was

       18    published, and I said I understand that.  And how important

       19    that they all thought the course was, that the most important

       20    thing was that it just got out to people and they could study

       21    it and it would change their lives.

       22    Q.  Did you think that any of the statements that were made by

       23    Ms. Skutch Whitson on that evening, did you think they were

       24    just stories?

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  Objection, your Honor.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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