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440 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 was Hugh Lynn Cayce in in 1970? 2 A. He was president of the ARE. And the ARE was devoted to 3 promulgating, preserving and teaching the messages of Edgar 4 Cayce, his father, which was spiritual messages. 5 Q. How would that tie into an interest on his part in seeing 6 early manuscripts of the course? 7 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor. 8 Q. What were you advised, if anything, about why Hugh Lynn 9 Cayce was interested in an early version of the course? 10 A. Well, I was aware of Hugh Lynn's work and the ARE's work 11 which had to do with healing, which had to do with forgiveness, 12 which had to do with spirituality, which had to do with 13 Christianity, which were all important things of the course, as 14 well as the transition of the course, which was similar to his 15 father's work. 16 Q. Meaning the transmission of how the material came to 17 Dr. Shucman? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Coincident with the type of work that Edgar Cayce had done, 20 and that's Hugh Lynn Cayce's father? 21 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor. He is just 22 leading the witness and telling him what to say. 23 MR. ROSENBERG: Those are two different things. 24 MR. FABIAN: I'm objecting on both bases. 25 MR. ROSENBERG: I'll rephrase. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
441 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. What does Dr. Thetford say in the first sentence of the 2 last paragraph of the letter? 3 A. You have been very generous with your time. And this 4 material is not intended to add to your burdens. 5 Q. Continue. 6 A. You had, however, expressed an interest in seeing this 7 latest form of the manuscript. 8 Q. And finally -- 9 A. We hope that if you find the material of sufficient 10 interest that we will have a chance to discuss it with you 11 again. 12 Q. To discuss it with you again, correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. The next letter in this Exhibit D is actually from Hugh 15 Lynn Cayce dated September 1, 1970, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. In the second paragraph Hugh Lynn Cayce says to 18 Dr. Thetford, as I told you before, I will also be most 19 interested in seeing a copy of the workbook. Have I read that 20 correctly? 21 A. Yes, you have. 22 Q. And in the next to last paragraph or the penultimate 23 paragraph Mr. Cayce says: Could we get together for a luncheon 24 or dinner and have a preliminary discussion. Any discussion of 25 material with this range and depth can only be spoken of in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
442 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 terms of one conversation as a preliminary. 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes, you did. 4 Q. Based on your conversations with Dr. Thetford and 5 Dr. Shucman, what is your understanding, based on those 6 conversations? I'll rephrase it. What did they tell you was 7 going on about your interchange with Hugh Lynn Cayce? 8 A. They told me that they found him most interested in the 9 material, most interested in Helen and the phenomenon of her 10 scribing, and he was interested in learning more about it. 11 Q. On September 8, 1970, the next letter, Dr. Thetford writes 12 to Mr. Cayce and says in the second paragraph: We hope that 13 you will find the retyped version of the manuscript somewhat 14 easier to follow, correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And what does he say in the last paragraph? What does 17 Dr. Thetford say to Hugh Lynn Cayce? 18 A. As always, we are most grateful for your thoughtful 19 interest, time and help. 20 Q. Interest, time, and help? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And the final letter -- the next to last exhibit or page of 23 this Exhibit D is a November 18, 1970 letter from Dr. Thetford 24 to Hugh Lynn Cayce, correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
443 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. And the first paragraph Dr. Thetford tells Mr. Cayce in the 2 third sentence: We appreciate your finding time in your busy 3 schedule to see us, as well as the thoughtful and extensive 4 consideration you have given to the bulky manuscript. Is that 5 correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. He refers to thoughtful and extensive consideration, is 8 that right? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 Q. In the next paragraph there is a suggestion that Helen and 11 Bill meet with Dr. Puryear and Hugh Lynn Cayce and Hugh Lynn 12 Cayce's son, correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. What does Bill Thetford say in the last sentence of that 15 second paragraph? 16 A. We look forward to any further comments or suggestions 17 which you may wish to offer individually or collectively. 18 Q. Collectively, referring to Hugh Lynn Cayce? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Dr. Puryear, who was at ARE, correct? 21 A. Um-hum. 22 Q. And Mr. Cayce's son? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. It's saying: We look forward to comments or suggestions 25 which you may wish to offer individually or collectively, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
444 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. In the final letter that's a part of Exhibit D Hugh Lynn 4 Cayce writes to Dr. Thetford, says: It was good to see Helen 5 and Dr. Thetford in New York, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And he says: I have passed this manuscript on to 8 Dr. Puryear and Charles Thomas, my son. Just as soon as they 9 have had time to dig into it, I'll write you again and we will 10 set up some time for a five-way conversation. I think it would 11 be an advantage in interest to us all. Have I read that 12 correctly? 13 A. Yes, you have. 14 Q. And what did Helen and Bill tell you was going on with this 15 exchange with ARE concerning an earlier draft of the 16 manuscript? 17 A. Just that there had been discussion about it and they were 18 obviously interested in the manuscript. 19 Q. And do you have any knowledge that Hugh Lynn Cayce, 20 Mr. Puryear or anyone ever disseminated the early transcript 21 outside of ARE? 22 A. I have no knowledge of that at all. 23 Q. Have you ever met Dr. Puryear? 24 A. I don't believe I have. I've been down there a few times 25 to the area, but I don't believe I have ever met him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
445 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. But you described yesterday, to put it in context now that 2 we are going through these letters, where, from your own 3 observation, is the earlier version of this manuscript 4 maintained? 5 A. We call it the Hugh Lynn version, which was the one given 6 to Hugh Lynn Cayce, was in a locked room in the library at the 7 ARE. 8 Q. You testified to some observations that had been made that 9 when Helen mentioned that she wanted the work copyrighted you 10 thought that was out of character. Remember that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And it had not been in your mind the original intent to 13 copyright it, is that correct? 14 A. Yes, that's correct. 15 Q. What was the original intent prior to this discussion on 16 copyright about disseminating the course? 17 A. Very little discussion, actually. This was never something 18 Helen, Bill or I really had thought about. 19 Q. Did Helen ever indicate to you prior to the copyright 20 discussion -- by the way, Ms. Skutch -- do you have a 21 recollection, your own recollection, of when that conversation 22 about copyright took place? 23 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor. Now having stated 24 the date that Ms. Skutch Whitson -- 25 MR. ROSENBERG: I caught myself and rephrase the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
446 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 question. 2 Q. What's your recollection of the date when copyright was 3 discussed? 4 A. It would have been between the time we had met Judy, which 5 is the end of May, and before our trip out to the west coast, 6 which was in July. 7 Q. So it's either in June or early July? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Which is fundamentally within one month of your meeting 10 Judy? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. There is now a discussion about copyright? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. While it might have seemed out of character, was there any 15 objection or resistance to Dr. Shucman's suggestion that the 16 book be copyrighted? 17 A. No, none at all. 18 Q. There was some talk about this book by Maryann Williamson. 19 This is a 1992 book that Maryann Williamson wrote, is that 20 correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Long after A Course In Miracles had been copyrighted? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. What was the dispute that arose, if you recall, or 25 remember? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
447 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 A. That Maryann had taken perhaps inadvertently many, many 2 statements from the course. I think it was up to 78 or 80, 3 with no attribution so that someone reading the book would 4 surmise that it was Maryann who was saying these words when 5 indeed they were taken straight out of the course. 6 Q. Stated another way, she quoted the course, but with no 7 quotation marks, as though they were her own words? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Did the Foundation for Inner Peace or the Foundation for A 10 Course In Miracles acquiesce in that? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What did they do? 13 A. We spoke to the attorneys of the publisher, and it was 14 resolved. And then subsequent editions that had the proper 15 attribution. 16 Q. So FIP and FACIM stood up for their copyright? 17 A. Absolutely. 18 Q. And the later edition as part of the resolution had to 19 quote the course as quotes and attributed? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And that was in your view a fair compromise? 22 A. Yes, it was. 23 Q. Allowed the material to be disseminated as Ms. Williamson 24 wanted it, correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
448 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. And protected the copyright? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Does FACIM or FIP ever want any more than that that kind of 4 fair compromise? 5 A. I don't think so, no. 6 Q. I want to ask you one other little section here. You have 7 testified that there was a high level of secretness about this 8 whole process when you were first involved? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did your parents know what you were doing? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why? 13 A. Helen told me not to tell them. I was spending a lot of 14 time with them. I was actually working at the medical center, 15 and my mother and Helen had indeed become friendly. But Helen 16 did not want me to say anything about the course. 17 Q. Did she allow you, without mentioning her name, to show it 18 to your mother? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And your own mother, did you at that time? 21 A. I'm sorry? 22 Q. Did you show it to your mother anyway at that time? 23 A. No, of course not. 24 Q. Why? 25 A. Helen asked me not to, so I wouldn't do that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
449 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. So you have this secretness, but yet on May 29 Judy Skutch 2 comes up to the office in Columbia, correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And within an hour or two hours or four hours, but that day 5 she is actually given the manuscript? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. How do you reconcile secretness with giving the manuscript 8 to someone that Helen just met? 9 A. Well, it was obvious, I think, even from that afternoon 10 that Judy shared our interest, obviously shared the same 11 perspective, spiritual perspective. There was a personal 12 resonance, what the Italians say simpatico, among all of us, 13 and we had been expecting a next step. And Helen intuitively 14 understood that she recognized in Judy that she was the next 15 step. 16 Q. If Helen had sensed or felt intuitively or otherwise that 17 Judy wasn't simpatico, wasn't the right person, would she have 18 been given the copy? 19 A. Absolutely not. 20 MR. FABIAN: Objection, your Honor. 21 Q. Was Helen teaching at this time? 22 A. At the university? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. At Columbia? No. 25 Q. Was she part of a faculty at Columbia? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
450 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How many people worked in her department? 3 A. She was -- in the department I would say four or five 4 people under her, and then there was a larger department. 5 Q. Other than Calvin Hatcher, who you have described, did 6 Helen give it to these other people -- 7 A. No one else knew in the medical center. 8 Q. You talked about out in California that session out at 9 Broadway, that reception, correct? 10 A. Um-hum. 11 Q. How many people do you remember being there? 12 A. I don't remember. Maybe 30, 35. 13 Q. How many of those did Helen give a copy of the manuscript 14 to? 15 A. None. 16 Q. Helen interacted with people every day, from your own 17 personal observation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Dozens and dozens of people over the years? 20 A. Um-hum. 21 Q. Other than the select group of people who were interested 22 that you've talked about, how many manuscripts did she give to 23 those? 24 A. None. 25 Q. Never once? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
451 35lMpenT 1 A. No, never. 2 MR. ROSENBERG: Nothing further. 3 MR. FABIAN: Nothing further, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Doctor, do I understand correctly that 5 your foundation holds the copyright? 6 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 7 THE COURT: What is the involvement of Penguin and 8 Inner Peace? 9 THE WITNESS: There was a contract signed between the 10 Foundation for Inner Peace and Penguin for a five-year contract 11 that they would publish the course. That has subsequently 12 expired. It was not renewed. 13 MR. ROSENBERG: If I could clarify. At the beginning 14 of the litigation Penguin was the exclusive licensee for 15 certain territories. Foundation for Inner Peace was the 16 copyright holder. 17 During the course of litigation the Penguin agreement 18 expired; hence, they are no longer a party, and there was a 19 written assignment recorded at the copyright office of the 20 copyright from a Foundation for Inner Peace to Foundation for A 21 Course In Miracles. And my understanding is -- I'm happy to 22 make inquiry that there was an exclusive license granted back 23 for Foundation for Inner Peace to publish the book. 24 THE COURT: None of which I have. 25 MR. ROSENBERG: I believe it's all before you on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
452 35lMpenT 1 summary judgment submissions. So those issues, again, were 2 addressed and had been presented. I'm sorry. I didn't make 3 that clear in this presentation. 4 THE COURT: A function of age, apparently. 5 MR. ROSENBERG: Mine perhaps, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: No. Mine. 7 Thanks very much, Doctor. 8 (Witness excused) 9 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, while we are the 10 plaintiffs, as we discussed at the beginning, the burden in 11 this procedural posture is on the defendants, so I am not going 12 to say that the plaintiffs rest exactly because I'm not sure 13 that's the right phrase in this posture, but we have concluded 14 our initial presentation. I believe we have moved into 15 evidence all of the exhibits. 16 MR. FABIAN: I think that's correct. 17 Your Honor, just so the record is clear, we are 18 prepared to go forward on that basis. 19 THE COURT: Fine. 20 MR. FABIAN: It's our understanding -- and I've 21 represented to the Court that as we are dealing with this one 22 affirmative defense and as Mr. Rosenberg quite clearly pointed 23 out, you have before you a number of things in the summary 24 judgment papers talking about who and what the church is and so 25 forth. We are not going to present a witness to kind of say SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
453 35lMpenT 1 here is what the church is and here is what took place, if 2 that's okay with the Court, for the sake of time. 3 As a result, we will call just a few brief witnesses 4 and rely upon to a great extent the documents introduced, the 5 cross-examination, and, of course, the transcripts which we 6 will be submitting to your Honor of the depositions. 7 I'll go get our first witness, who I believe will be 8 Anne Puryear, your Honor. 9 ANNE PURYEAR, 10 called as a witness by the Defendant, 11 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. FABIAN: 14 Q. Ms. Puryear, good morning, I'm Larry Fabian. 15 Do you recall the first time we met at all? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When was that? 18 A. Today. 19 Q. But we did speak on the phone prior to that, did we not? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I believe we spoke last night? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Ms. Puryear, are you the wife of Herbert Puryear? 24 A. I am. 25 Q. When were you first married to him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
454 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 A. Christmas Day 1982. 2 Q. Now, could you just briefly describe for the Court your 3 educational and business background so we can have some sense 4 of who you are? 5 A. My husband and I are founders and directors of the Logo 6 Center in Scottsdale. I'm an ordained minister since 1974, and 7 gestalt therapist and an author of a couple of books. 8 Q. The books, what are the subject matter of these books that 9 you've published? 10 A. One of them is a spiritual book. Another one is on teenage 11 suicide. 12 Q. I assume -- strike that. 13 Are you familiar with a book called A Course In 14 Miracles? 15 A. I am. 16 Q. And when did you first become familiar with that book? 17 A. The very first time I think was somewhere in about 1972, 18 '73, '74, somewhere in there when I heard about it. 19 Q. Now, how did you happen to hear about the course in that 20 period of time? 21 A. I was studying for the ministry. And the directors of the 22 school talked about a manuscript that had been dictated by 23 Jesus. And everybody was excited about it and wanted to see if 24 they could get a copy of it, but it -- there were no copies 25 available. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
455 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 Q. What school was that where you heard this? 2 A. It was the National School of Spiritual Science in 3 Washington, D.C. 4 Q. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers or 5 professors who were talking about it at the time? 6 A. Henry and Diane Nagorka. 7 Q. Do you recall what they said as best you can about the 8 course at that time? 9 A. Just that it had been channeled through a woman and it was 10 words directly from Jesus of the Bible. 11 Q. And I assume you did not get a copy of the course during 12 that time period? 13 A. No. 14 Q. When for the first time did you get a copy of the course? 15 A. After it was already published. 16 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? 17 A. About 19 -- between '77 and '79, somewhere in there. 18 Q. And did you become a reader of A Course In Miracles? 19 A. I read some of it. It was not that easy to read. I would 20 read some and then I would not read for a while and then I 21 would read it again. 22 Q. Are you familiar with the name Judith Skutch Whitson or 23 perhaps Judith Skutch or perhaps Judith Whitson? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. When did you first become familiar with that individual or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
456 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 her name? 2 A. I had heard about her when I was on staff at the ARE 3 medical clinic in Phoenix, and how she dedicated she was in 4 getting this information out. So I had just heard about her. 5 I had not met her then. 6 Q. When you say you were on the ARE medical staff in Phoenix, 7 about what time was that? 8 A. I was on staff from 1977 until 1981. 9 Q. And is that ARE, the one that's -- 10 A. It's the medical research division of the ARE in Virginia 11 Beach. 12 Q. Did there come a time when you actually met Judith Skutch 13 Whitson? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. Around May of 1983. 17 Q. And how do you happen to recall that date? 18 A. We were in San Francisco. My husband was doing a 19 conference, I was speaking at Canada College, and we had just 20 been certified in scuba, and we were going to Maui for our 21 first dive. 22 Q. Did you in fact meet Judith Skutch Whitson at that time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Could you describe, first, the circumstances of your 25 meeting and where it took place? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
457 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 A. We met at a restaurant. There were four of us, Herb and I 2 and Bill Whitson and Judy Skutch. 3 Q. And did you have dinner there or just drinks? What took 4 place? 5 A. We had dinner. 6 Q. Did have you drinks at that time? 7 A. I don't drink. My husband probably had a glass of wine. 8 Q. So do you have any recollection of the conversations that 9 took place during the course of that restaurant meeting? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. And just in general, was this an event -- this restaurant 12 meeting, was it an event that you were looking forward to or 13 just another social occasion? 14 A. We would meet with people all over the country, but this 15 one was particularly interesting to me because I had heard so 16 much about Judy Skutch and A Course In Miracles and was 17 interested in the whole story. 18 And one reason I remember the conversation so well, 19 she started out by saying, we had just been married a few 20 months. She said Herb looks so happy. I have never seen him 21 look so relaxed and so happy. You're good for him. 22 Q. Nice way to start the evening? 23 A. Yes. I'll always remember her for that. 24 Q. Do you recall approximately how long the dinner took place? 25 A. I think probably a couple of hours. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
458 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 Q. Was there any just general social conversation as we might 2 describe it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Catching up on people you knew and so forth? 5 A. That kind of thing, right. 6 Q. Were there any discussions concerning A Course In Miracles 7 and how it came back or anything to that effect? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you recall, if you would, what was -- was anything 10 said by Judith Skutch Whitson at that time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And as best you could, please tell the Court what you 13 recall Judith Skutch Whitson said concerning the course. 14 A. Well, I had asked her a lot of questions about it because 15 we had heard so much information secondhand, and I wanted to 16 hear it straight from her about the course, and she said that 17 Helen and Bill had wanted it to get out to people, but they 18 didn't want their name associated with it. I think it had 19 something to do with their employment, their jobs. I think I 20 remember that. 21 But we discussed how copies were made and distributed. 22 And I was talking about a book I was writing at that time and 23 lecturing that I was doing and how I handed out copies of 24 things that I was going to use in a book I was writing. And 25 she said, there was never a plan to copyright the book, but SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
459 35lMpenT Puryear - direct 1 then we realized that we had to do it. But she described the 2 whole thing about how Helen listened. And I found that 3 interesting, because I listen in a similar way. 4 Q. Do you recall anything else about the course at that time 5 that was discussed about the course? 6 A. Well, that it was from Jesus. We were all excited about 7 that and how many people it was helping and how people were so 8 excited when it first came out that they gave out copies and 9 those people made copies, and then groups formed and studied 10 those copies. I had heard those stories from people I knew. 11 Q. Did Judith Skutch Whitson say these words to you? 12 A. No. She said they made copies in the beginning, that Helen 13 mainly wanted the information to get out to people. That was 14 her desire. 15 Q. And anything else you recall concerning the evening? 16 A. Well, I said that that's my desire, too, because I was 17 handing out things that later went in the book that was 18 published, and I said I understand that. And how important 19 that they all thought the course was, that the most important 20 thing was that it just got out to people and they could study 21 it and it would change their lives. 22 Q. Did you think that any of the statements that were made by 23 Ms. Skutch Whitson on that evening, did you think they were 24 just stories? 25 MR. ROSENBERG: Objection, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 |
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