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             35lMpenT

        1    UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

        1    SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

        2    ------------------------------x

        2

        3    PENGUIN BOOKS USA., INC., FOUNDATION

        3    FOR "A COURSE IN MIRACLES, INC.," AND

        4    FOUNDATION FOR INNER PEACE, INC.,

        5

        5                   Plaintiffs,

        6

        6               v.                           96 Civ. 4126 (RWS)

        7

        7    NEW CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF FULL

        8    ENDEAVOR, LTD., and ENDEAVOR

        8    ACADEMY,

        9

        9                   Defendants.

       10

       10    ------------------------------x

       11                                            New York, N.Y.

       11                                            May 21, 2003

       12                                            9:30 a.m.

       12

       13    Before:

       13

       14                         HON. ROBERT W. SWEET,

       14

       15                                            District Judge

       15

       16                              APPEARANCES

       16

       17    EPSTEIN BECKER & GREEN, PC

       17         Attorneys for Plaintiffs

       18    BY:  JOHN ROSENBERG

       18         CARRIE FLETCHER

       19

       19    LAWRENCE E. FABIAN

       20    MONTY C. BARBER

       20         Attorneys for Defendants

       21

       21

       22

       23

       24

       25

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

                                                                           418

             35lMpenT

        1             (Trial resumed)

        2             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, may I proceed?

        3             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

        4     KENNETH WAPNICK, resumed.

        5    CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)

        6    BY MR. FABIAN:

        7    Q.  Dr. Wapnick, you'll recall that I was questioning you

        8    yesterday concerning your obtaining -- your first obtaining the

        9    course.  Do you recall that?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And I believe you testified that you were introduced to

       12    Helen and Bill by whom?

       13    A.  Father Benedict Groeschel.

       14    Q.  And you met Helen and Bill where for the first time?

       15    A.  Bill's apartment.

       16    Q.  Now, about how long did you meet with them on that first

       17    evening?

       18    A.  Two, two and a half hours, at most.

       19    Q.  I believe you also testified that during that time period

       20    you spoke mostly about yourself and what you were doing?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  And at the end of that evening I recall something about,

       23    was it Bill that pointed --

       24    A.  Someone pointed.  It was either Bill or Father Groeschel.

       25    Q.  At that time did you understand that you could take the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           419

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    course if you wished at that time?

        2    A.  They would show it to me.  It was vague.

        3    Q.  And then later that evening, as I recall, you went beak to

        4    Father Groeschel's to stay and I think you testified he too

        5    offered that you could take the course, correct?

        6    A.  No.  That I could look at it, that I could read it.

        7    Q.  But I believe you testified then you went off to Israel

        8    because you didn't want to schlepp the course with you,

        9    correct?

       10    A.  Yes, I said.

       11    Q.  By the time you went off to Israel you had been offered the

       12    case at least to take with you?

       13    A.  I guess so, yes.

       14    Q.  Now, in connection with Cal Hatcher, was he someone --

       15    could you tell the Court again, who was Cal Hatcher and how did

       16    he know Bill Thetford?

       17    A.  He was an administrative vice-president at the medical

       18    center, so he worked closely with Bill on administrative-- Bill

       19    was chairman of the psychology department.

       20    Q.  And I believe that you testified that Mr. Hatcher in fact

       21    got the course from its very beginning, is that correct?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  And I do recall reading in your book Absence from Felicity

       24    that in fact Cal Hatcher and Bill Thetford would maybe on a

       25    day-to-day basis with some breaks discuss course materials as

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    it came through?

        2    A.  Yes.

        3    Q.  And do you know for how long a period this went on?

        4    A.  I do not, but I would assume since they were close friends

        5    and they are at the medical center every day, it would be

        6    frequently over an extended period of time.

        7    Q.  And, Doctor, over that extended period of time then is it a

        8    fact that Dr. Hatcher got a copy of A Course In Miracles?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  Just so the record is clear, in connection with the copy

       11    that you received, did it have a copyright notice on it?

       12    A.  No, it did not.

       13    Q.  In connection with the copy that Father Groeschel had, did

       14    that have a copyright notice on it?

       15    A.  No, it did not.

       16    Q.  In connection with the copies that Cal Hatcher received of

       17    the course, did that have a copyright notice on it?

       18    A.  No.

       19    Q.  Now, I believe you also testified concerning who may have

       20    then been Mr. Mundy or may have become Dr. Mundy.  What was his

       21    first name?

       22    A.  John.

       23    Q.  Did there come a time when Jon Mundy met with Helen or Bill

       24    concerning the course?

       25    A.  Yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           421

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    Q.  And what was Dr. Mundy at that point in time?

        2    A.  He was a reverend.  He was a minister.

        3    Q.  What was he at that point in time when you met Helen and

        4    Bill?  Was he a student, was he already a minister?

        5    A.  He was already a minister.  He was a doctoral student, but

        6    he never completed his studies.

        7    Q.  Was he a minister in what type of church?

        8    A.  Methodist church.

        9    Q.  Were you present when he met with Helen or Bill?

       10    A.  The first meeting was in my apartment.

       11    Q.  Who was there at that meeting?

       12    A.  Helen, myself and Father Groeschel.

       13    Q.  What was discussed at that meeting, as you can recall

       14    concerning the course?

       15    A.  John knew nothing about it.  It was basically an

       16    introduction to him.  I forget exactly what Helen and Bill

       17    said, but they briefly told him the story, how it was written

       18    and basically what it was.

       19    Q.  And about how long a period of time did they spend

       20    together?

       21    A.  It was an evening.  Helen never liked long evenings, so

       22    probably an hour and a half, two hours at best.

       23    Q.  Was it at that time or at a later time that Reverend Mundy

       24    got part or all of the course?

       25    A.  I don't know for sure.  It would be a part of the course

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           422

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    that evening or soon afterwards.

        2    Q.  Do you know if he received all of the course material?

        3    A.  I don't know if he received it right then.  Eventually he

        4    did.

        5    Q.  And when he received the course material was it what we

        6    have been describing as the uncopyrighted manuscript or --

        7    A.  The uncopyrighted.

        8    Q.  And was that before or after Judy Skutch Whitson on May 29,

        9    1975 received her copy?

       10    A.  It was before.

       11    Q.  Now, just so -- and just so the record is clear, I believe

       12    you testified that Bill Thetford, of course, received one or

       13    more copies of the manuscript, is that correct?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  And do you remember how many copies he received?  Because

       16    there seems to be some story about it.

       17    A.  There are different versions.  The original, the urtext,

       18    what we call the urtext, which was the typed copy, there are

       19    only four copies.

       20    Q.  How about what we are referring to as the copy that

       21    eventually got published?  How many copies of the uncopyrighted

       22    manuscript did he receive?

       23    A.  There were -- I think there were like nine or ten copies of

       24    that total.  So he would have had -- there were one or two up

       25    in the office.  He had one.  So he might have had one or two.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           423

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    I am not sure.

        2    Q.  And those didn't have a copyright notice on them either?

        3    A.  No, they did not.

        4    Q.  Is the name Hugh Lynn Cayce familiar to you?

        5    A.  Yes, it is.

        6    Q.  Did Hugh Lynn Cayce receive a full manuscript with no

        7    notice of copyright on it, whichever version it was?

        8    A.  I believe it was a full version, but would not have had the

        9    copyright on it.

       10    Q.  Do you recall approximately when Hugh Lynn Cayce got that

       11    version?

       12    A.  It probably was 1972.

       13    Q.  And were you present when he got it?

       14    A.  No, I was not.

       15    Q.  Were you part of the scene at that time?

       16    A.  No, I was not.

       17    Q.  And how do you know that Hugh Lynn Cayce got a full copy?

       18    A.  Helen and Bill had told me.

       19    Q.  And do you know whether, sir, Hugh Lynn Cayce gave copies

       20    of part or all of the course to his son?

       21    A.  I do not know that.

       22    Q.  Do you know whether Hugh Lynn Cayce gave part or all of the

       23    course to a fellow named Herbert Puryear?

       24    A.  I do not.

       25    Q.  I am going to show you some documents that have been marked

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    as Defendants' Exhibit D, and these are certified copies of

        2    documents that were filed in the copyright office.

        3             I am going to show you what's been marked for

        4    Defendants' Exhibit D.  You may, of course, look at the early

        5    letters in here.  But particularly if you would look at what

        6    are the last four letters in this grouping.  You have a right

        7    to look at all of them.

        8             Doctor, have you ever seen those letters before?

        9    A.  Yes, I have.

       10    Q.  In fact, did you not file those letters in the copyright

       11    office yourself?

       12    A.  I did.

       13    Q.  And in reading those letters, does it refresh your

       14    recollection that a copy was given to Hugh Lynn Cayce -- given

       15    from Hugh Lynn Cayce to Herbert Puryear in whole or in part?

       16    A.  Yes, it does.

       17    Q.  Does it refresh your recollection that a copy of the course

       18    was given in or around 1970 or '71 to Hugh Lynn Cayce's son at

       19    that time?

       20    A.  Yes, it does.

       21    Q.  How did it happen that these documents came into your

       22    possession?

       23    A.  I was in charge of the archives, an informal designation.

       24    Helen and Bill were not very organized.  They gave me the

       25    various -- copies of the course in the versions as had evolved

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           425

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    over the years and correspondence.

        2    Q.  And did you then file these letters among others with the

        3    copyright office?

        4    A.  Yes, I did.

        5    Q.  And did you file them for copyright -- do you remember

        6    under what title?  I remember something about unwritten --

        7    A.  The unpublished writings of Helen Shucman.

        8    Q.  You don't have any reason for me to believe that the

        9    information contained in those letters is untrue, the four that

       10    you looked at?

       11    A.  I have no reason to, no.

       12    Q.  Now, at the time you received A Course In Miracles -- and

       13    just fix that date in my mind again.

       14    A.  I received it.  It was May 1973.

       15    Q.  In May of 1973, had you by that time received a doctorate?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  And had you published any articles or any books by that

       18    time?

       19    A.  One article, I think.

       20    Q.  And you were aware, I'm sure, at that time of what

       21    copyright was and what it meant?

       22    A.  I'm sure I was, yes.

       23    Q.  And by May of 1973, did you ever become aware of the fact

       24    that Helen and Bill had published articles prior to that date?

       25    A.  Yes, I was.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           426

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    Q.  I think there had been some talk in earlier questioning

        2    about Helen and Bill were part of Columbia University where

        3    there was a publish or perish type of situation, is that

        4    correct?

        5    A.  That's correct.

        6    Q.  And Bill and Helen were aware of the copyright laws and the

        7    fact that one could put a copyright notice on documents, isn't

        8    that correct?

        9    A.  I assume they were.

       10    Q.  So we are clear, up until the time Judy Skutch gets her

       11    copy of the course, there had never been a copyright notice put

       12    on any copies of the course, is that right?

       13    A.  That is correct.

       14    Q.  And do you know if there had ever been put on any copies of

       15    the course a notice to the effect of, restricted, do not

       16    distribute, anything like that?

       17    A.  No.

       18    Q.  And, in fact, as I recall from the readings, originally the

       19    intent of Helen was to get this book out to the world at some

       20    point in time, is that correct?

       21    A.  No, that's not correct.

       22    Q.  She originally wanted to keep it secret from the people in

       23    her college community, isn't that correct?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  That was her guilty secret, as you describe?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           427

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    A.  Right.

        2    Q.  And there came a point in time, however, that I remember

        3    reading in your book that the course was to be offered to the

        4    world, however?

        5    A.  To be published, yes.

        6    Q.  Only when it was published?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  But the issue of copyright never came up, as I understand

        9    it, until there was some sort of session where everyone sat

       10    around and asked for guidance and it was determined at that

       11    point in time to copyright the course, is that correct?

       12    A.  Not quite.  Helen actually had received the guidance

       13    herself and had shared it with us.  I think that's how it

       14    happened.  It's probably in my book.

       15    Q.  I know.  If I could only find it in your book, I would be

       16    very happy.

       17             Moving on to another area, could you explain to me at

       18    this point in time what is the difference between -- I've been

       19    told that I've been calling it FACIM and the pronunciation is

       20    FACIM, which is the Foundation for A Course In Miracles.

       21    A.  We never really use that.

       22    Q.  It's my shorthand.  I apologize.  What is the difference in

       23    the Foundation for Inner Peace and the Foundation for A Course

       24    In Miracles?

       25    A.  They are two legally separated organizations.  Basically,

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           428

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    we have always seen the Foundation for A Course In Miracles as

        2    the teaching organization of the Foundation for Inner Peace.

        3    The Foundation for Inner Peace is the publisher of the course

        4    and we hold the copyright for the course.

        5    Q.  Now, who actually publishes and distributes at this point

        6    in time the course?

        7    A.  Foundation for Inner Peace.

        8    Q.  And the income from the publication of the course at this

        9    point in time comes into which organization?

       10    A.  Foundation for Inner Peace.

       11             THE COURT:  I'm sorry?

       12             THE WITNESS:  Foundation for Inner Peace.  Should I

       13    say FIP?

       14    Q.  Whatever is comfortable for you.  Don't change your lingo

       15    for me, please.  I'll change for you.

       16             In connection with the Foundation for A Course In

       17    Miracles, I believe you are the head of that organization?

       18    A.  Yes, I am.

       19    Q.  Who is on the board?

       20    A.  My wife, Gloria, and Judith Feinman.

       21    Q.  How long has Judith Feinman been on the board?

       22    A.  Two years.

       23    Q.  Has Ms. Skutch Whitson or any of the Skutch Whitson family

       24    ever been on the board of the Foundation for A Course In

       25    Miracles?

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                                                                           429

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    A.  No.

        2    Q.  And are you on the board of the Foundation for Inner Peace?

        3    A.  Yes, I am.

        4    Q.  Have you always -- at least since you've been around, have

        5    you been on that board?

        6    A.  Almost always.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  I would say if he had been on the

        8    board before he was around, I would want to hear that.

        9             MR. FABIAN:  Sorry for my shorthand.

       10    Q.  Now, I think you have just testified that the income from A

       11    Course In Miracles goes to the Foundation for Inner Peace.

       12    What is the source of revenue for the foundation for A Course

       13    In Miracles at this point in time?

       14    A.  The books and tapes that I write and produce at workshops.

       15    Q.  Is that the sole source of funds?  Are there any

       16    sponsorship funds?

       17    A.  And donations.

       18    Q.  And just so I understand it, the Foundation for Inner Peace

       19    is made up of Judith Skutch Whitson and Robert Skutch and

       20    Ms. Skutch Whitson's present husband, Mr. Whitson.  None of

       21    them were the authors of A Course In Miracles, were they?

       22    A.  No.

       23    Q.  And I think that I also recall hearing that Ms. Skutch

       24    Whitson's daughter receives income from the Foundation for

       25    Inner Peace.  Was she the author of A Course In Miracles?

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                                                                           430

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    A.  No.

        2    Q.  And did her daughter have any involvement with it in the

        3    years say '70 to '80?

        4    A.  No.

        5    Q.  And you, sir, were not the author of A Course In Miracles,

        6    is that correct?

        7    A.  That's correct.

        8    Q.  And just so the record is clear, would you please tell the

        9    world who you believe was the author of A Course In Miracles?

       10    A.  That's a difficult question, as you know.

       11    Q.  I'm told you can answer questions in under an hour.

       12             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, I would object.  The

       13    authorship issue was determined on summary judgment.  Whether

       14    it was Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, Dr. Shucman, whether it was

       15    scribe, that's all been resolved.  That's not before us.  And I

       16    think a discourse on that issue, I think, is irrelevant to this

       17    proceeding and actually is a complicated and lengthy issue.

       18             THE COURT:  Overruled.

       19    A.  I have two hours?

       20             Helen always had said that the source of the course

       21    was Jesus, that her inner experience was that there was a voice

       22    that she heard that dictated the course to her.  So Helen would

       23    always have said that the course came from him.

       24    Q.  Thank you for the short answer and I'm not wishing to

       25    expand on it.

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                                                                           431

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1             Wasn't it often said by the members, by Judith Skutch

        2    Whitson and others, that Helen was merely the scribe in A

        3    Course In Miracles?

        4    A.  Yes.

        5    Q.  By that it was understood that she wrote down what the

        6    voice, whoever the voice was told her?

        7    A.  That's correct, yes.

        8    Q.  Now, do you recall writing an article or being one of the

        9    authors of an article which has been marked as Defendants'

       10    Exhibit W which is a newsletter of the Foundation for A Course

       11    In Miracles?  I am going to ask you to take a look at it,

       12    marked as Defendants' W.  Please look at that and tell me if

       13    you remember that article.

       14    A.  Yes, I do.

       15    Q.  Are you listed as one of the authors of that article?

       16    A.  Yes, I am.

       17    Q.  And were you in fact the writer of this article?  Did you

       18    do the writing or did someone else do it?

       19    A.  I was probably the principal author, yes.

       20    Q.  Now, in connection with this particular article, it states

       21    as follows:  Although Helen and William Thetford, her partner

       22    in scribing the course, had known from the beginning that the

       23    course was not intended for them alone, they could not imagine

       24    it would ever become popular enough to require copyright

       25    protection.  Is that a true statement?

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                                                                           432

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    A.  Yes, it was.

        2    Q.  So, in fact, the intention initially was not to copyright

        3    the course, is that correct?

        4    A.  Yes, that's correct.

        5    Q.  Next sentence, also, the idea of copyright struck all of us

        6    as somewhat out of character when applied to a spiritual

        7    teaching such as A Course In Miracles.  Is that a correct

        8    statement?

        9    A.  Yes, it is.

       10    Q.  Initially, you were in agreement with the fact that a

       11    copyright was out of character for this particular type of

       12    work?

       13    A.  I think it struck us as kind of strange when Helen

       14    announced to us that Jesus had said it should be copyrighted.

       15    Q.  Nonetheless, even though we could not envision a need for

       16    the course to be copyrighted, we, of course, listened to Jesus

       17    and proceeded to contact the copyright office of the Library of

       18    Congress in Washington D.C.  It then goes on to say:  We were

       19    informed that a copyright could not be granted to a nonphysical

       20    author such as Jesus, nor to anonymous.  Who was informed of

       21    that fact?

       22    A.  I don't recall actually.  I know the story of that, but I

       23    don't remember who told me that.

       24    Q.  Could you relate the story, as best you can recall?

       25    A.  Basically, as it was, that the copyright office had

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             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    informed us -- perhaps it was Bob Skutch, because he would have

        2    been the one that would have called them -- that one couldn't

        3    copyright a book under the name Jesus.  It had to have a human

        4    name, human author.

        5    Q.  Did you have any understanding at this point in time as to

        6    how this issue came up, that the copyright office indicated it

        7    couldn't be copyrighted under the name Jesus?

        8    A.  I would assume, based on that, that someone must have told

        9    them, presumably Robert Skutch, that Jesus was the source of

       10    material.

       11    Q.  Now, I'm looking at page 2 of this article.  And it says:

       12    In part, because of our experience with the translations and in

       13    part because of the course's increasing popularity (there are

       14    almost now one million copies -- and I believe that was in

       15    December of 1992 -- in circulation) we were gradually led to

       16    reconsider our policy regarding enforcement of the copyright.

       17             What had been your previous policy before December of

       18    1992?

       19    A.  I suspect it was a little looser.

       20    Q.  What does that mean?

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, I would object until a

       22    foundation is laid at the time in reference to the fact that

       23    Mr. Wapner's organization didn't hold the copyright.  I would

       24    like a foundation that he has knowledge of the policy, which he

       25    well may.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           434

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1             MR. FABIAN:  Which is what I was asking.

        2    Q.  At that time did you have any knowledge of what the

        3    principals were as to enforcement?

        4    A.  I did.  It was not.

        5    Q.  Having said yes to that, can you tell us what your

        6    recollection of what those were?

        7    A.  It was not my principal responsibility in those years, so

        8    I'm a little vague about that.

        9    Q.  As best you recall.

       10    A.  That basically the copyright -- that we would generally

       11    restrict the use of the copyright.  Our concern was really that

       12    the course not become a cottage industry, that it not be

       13    excerpted, put on coffee mugs, greeting cards, et cetera, et

       14    cetera, that we felt that in honor of Helen's wishes and also,

       15    in terms of the dignity of the course itself, that it should

       16    not be treated that way.

       17    Q.  But, in fact, as I believe you recall that the course was

       18    excerpted by publication from the Foundation for Inner Peace,

       19    is that correct, prior to that date?

       20    A.  That was William Thetford.

       21    Q.  Now, isn't it a fact, sir, that the reason the Foundation

       22    for Inner Peace decided to make its guidelines more stringent

       23    was because there had been a book published at or about that

       24    time by Maryann Williamson concerning A Course In Miracles?

       25    A.  I don't think that was at that time.  I am not sure of the

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                                                                           435

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    date of Maryann's book.

        2    Q.  But she did publish a book concerning the course?

        3    A.  Yes, she he did.

        4    Q.  It was a best seller, was it not?

        5    A.  Yes, it was.

        6             MR. ROSENBERG:  Can we have a time frame?  You said at

        7    that time.

        8    Q.  I'm looking at Maryann Williamson's book, A Return to Love.

        9    Do you recall that to be the name of the book?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  It says:  Copyright 1992, by coincidence, Maryann

       12    Williamson.  Does that refresh your recollection as to the date

       13    of the book?

       14    A.  If it says it, obviously, that's the date, yes.

       15    Q.  As a matter of fact, the Foundation for Inner Peace

       16    commenced a litigation against Ms. Williamson to stop that

       17    book, didn't you?

       18    A.  I don't know if it was a litigation.  There was discussion

       19    certainly.

       20    Q.  Is the book still being published today?

       21    A.  Yes, it is.

       22    Q.  So was one of the reasons for the tightening of the

       23    guidelines the fact that Maryann Williamson had produced a best

       24    seller concerning A Course In Miracles?

       25    A.  I don't recall.  It could have been, obviously, but I don't

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                                                                           436

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    recall the specifics of that.  I'm sorry.

        2    Q.  Do you recall whether the sale of the Maryann Williamson

        3    book or any books relating to the course have decreased the

        4    income which the foundation for A Course In Miracles receives

        5    from your publications?

        6    A.  I don't think so, no.

        7    Q.  And do you know whether the sale of the Maryann Williamson

        8    book or any other books concerning A Course In Miracles have

        9    decreased the income -- I'll take that back -- have decreased

       10    the sales of the book itself, A Course In Miracles?

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, by agreement of the

       12    parties, the damage issue was reserved to follow the resolution

       13    of this case.  I would object on grounds of relevance to this

       14    proceeding about income generated postcopyright from the sale

       15    of this work.

       16             MR. FABIAN:  Again, this is not related to the damage

       17    issue, your Honor.  This is related to the intent of the

       18    parties and whether the copyright itself is of any

       19    significance.

       20             THE COURT:  Overruled.

       21    Q.  Do you need the question read back?

       22    A.  Yes, please.

       23    Q.  I think, essentially, what I asked you, do you know whether

       24    the sale of the Maryann Williamson book or any other books

       25    relating to A Course In Miracles not published by FIP or not

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                                                                           437

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - cross

        1    published by you have decreased the sales of the book, A Course

        2    In Miracles at all?

        3    A.  I do not know.

        4    Q.  Today, as I think you've testified, the book, A Course In

        5    Miracles, is published by FIP itself?

        6    A.  Yes, it is.

        7    Q.  But at one time it was published by Penguin, is that

        8    correct?

        9    A.  That's correct.

       10    Q.  And I believe there had been some prior testimony that

       11    initially Helen Shucman had wanted A Course In Miracles to be

       12    published by only a not for profit.  Do you recall that?

       13    A.  Her original statement, which came in meditation, was that

       14    it should be published by those for whom the course was the

       15    most important thing in their life, something like that.

       16             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, I have no further questions.

       17    If I can just go back to my staff and see if they are going to

       18    tell me I have more questions.

       19             I have no further questions.

       20             MR. ROSENBERG:  Redirect, your Honor.

       21             THE COURT:  Yes.

       22    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       23    BY MR. ROSENBERG:

       24    Q.  Good morning, Dr. Wapnick.

       25    A.  Good morning, Mr. Rosenberg.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           438

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    Q.  You were handed, I believe, during your cross-examination,

        2    I think it's Defendants' Exhibit D, if my memory is correct,

        3    that copyright packet, is that right?

        4    A.  Yes.

        5    Q.  And there is some letters there that were introduced on

        6    which you were questioned regarding Hugh Lynn Cayce, correct?

        7    A.  Um-hum, that's correct.

        8    Q.  I'd like to draw your attention and sort of take them in

        9    order.  The first one that I see is dated August 20, 1970, is

       10    that correct?  Do you see that one?

       11    A.  Just give me a minute.  Yes, I do.

       12    Q.  And it's a letter to Mr. Cayce at the ARE Institute and

       13    it's from William N. Thetford, Ph.D., correct?

       14    A.  That's correct.

       15    Q.  And in this letter it says in the second sentence,

       16    referring to Dr. Shucman and Dr. Thetford:  We did, however,

       17    want to leave the four retyped volumes of the manuscript which

       18    you were kind enough to read in an earlier form.

       19             Have I read that correctly?

       20    A.  Yes, you did.

       21    Q.  And what is your understanding of why William Cayce -- Hugh

       22    Lynn Cayce was provided with a copy of an early draft of the

       23    manuscript?

       24             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, objection.  If we could get

       25    testimony as to what he heard or what was said as opposed to

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                                                                           439

             35lMpenT                 Wapnick - redirect

        1    what he thinks.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's fine.

        3    Q.  Were you advised by Dr. Shucman or Dr. Thetford at any time

        4    the circumstances under which they gave an early copy of the

        5    manuscript to Hugh Lynn Cayce?

        6    A.  Yes, I was.

        7    Q.  What did they tell you?

        8    A.  That before the course had started to come through Helen.

        9    In the late summer of 1965, they had visited Hugh Lynn Cayce to

       10    share with him some of Helen's experiences.  When the course

       11    started to come through Helen in October of 1965, shortly after

       12    that they went back down to see Hugh Lynn Cayce and at that

       13    point shared with him some of the material that had been coming

       14    through Helen.  So I'm assuming that's what that is meant about

       15    the earlier form and I would assume, from various things Helen

       16    and Bill had told me, that they had sent him pages of the text

       17    as it was coming through.

       18    Q.  In the third paragraph -- in the second, Dr. Thetford says:

       19    The workbook which we mentioned to you last year, which is

       20    intended to accompany the course, is still in progress.  Since

       21    you have been good enough to express an interest, we will be

       22    glad to send you a copy when it is completed.  First, did I

       23    read that correctly?

       24    A.  Yes, you did.

       25    Q.  What line of work -- I know that's kind of a vernacular --

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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