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35lMpenT 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x 2 3 PENGUIN BOOKS USA., INC., FOUNDATION 3 FOR "A COURSE IN MIRACLES, INC.," AND 4 FOUNDATION FOR INNER PEACE, INC., 5 5 Plaintiffs, 6 6 v. 96 Civ. 4126 (RWS) 7 7 NEW CHRISTIAN CHURCH OF FULL 8 ENDEAVOR, LTD., and ENDEAVOR 8 ACADEMY, 9 9 Defendants. 10 10 ------------------------------x 11 New York, N.Y. 11 May 21, 2003 12 9:30 a.m. 12 13 Before: 13 14 HON. ROBERT W. SWEET, 14 15 District Judge 15 16 APPEARANCES 16 17 EPSTEIN BECKER & GREEN, PC 17 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 18 BY: JOHN ROSENBERG 18 CARRIE FLETCHER 19 19 LAWRENCE E. FABIAN 20 MONTY C. BARBER 20 Attorneys for Defendants 21 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
418 35lMpenT 1 (Trial resumed) 2 MR. FABIAN: Your Honor, may I proceed? 3 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 4 KENNETH WAPNICK, resumed. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd) 6 BY MR. FABIAN: 7 Q. Dr. Wapnick, you'll recall that I was questioning you 8 yesterday concerning your obtaining -- your first obtaining the 9 course. Do you recall that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And I believe you testified that you were introduced to 12 Helen and Bill by whom? 13 A. Father Benedict Groeschel. 14 Q. And you met Helen and Bill where for the first time? 15 A. Bill's apartment. 16 Q. Now, about how long did you meet with them on that first 17 evening? 18 A. Two, two and a half hours, at most. 19 Q. I believe you also testified that during that time period 20 you spoke mostly about yourself and what you were doing? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And at the end of that evening I recall something about, 23 was it Bill that pointed -- 24 A. Someone pointed. It was either Bill or Father Groeschel. 25 Q. At that time did you understand that you could take the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
419 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 course if you wished at that time? 2 A. They would show it to me. It was vague. 3 Q. And then later that evening, as I recall, you went beak to 4 Father Groeschel's to stay and I think you testified he too 5 offered that you could take the course, correct? 6 A. No. That I could look at it, that I could read it. 7 Q. But I believe you testified then you went off to Israel 8 because you didn't want to schlepp the course with you, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, I said. 11 Q. By the time you went off to Israel you had been offered the 12 case at least to take with you? 13 A. I guess so, yes. 14 Q. Now, in connection with Cal Hatcher, was he someone -- 15 could you tell the Court again, who was Cal Hatcher and how did 16 he know Bill Thetford? 17 A. He was an administrative vice-president at the medical 18 center, so he worked closely with Bill on administrative-- Bill 19 was chairman of the psychology department. 20 Q. And I believe that you testified that Mr. Hatcher in fact 21 got the course from its very beginning, is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And I do recall reading in your book Absence from Felicity 24 that in fact Cal Hatcher and Bill Thetford would maybe on a 25 day-to-day basis with some breaks discuss course materials as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
420 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 it came through? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you know for how long a period this went on? 4 A. I do not, but I would assume since they were close friends 5 and they are at the medical center every day, it would be 6 frequently over an extended period of time. 7 Q. And, Doctor, over that extended period of time then is it a 8 fact that Dr. Hatcher got a copy of A Course In Miracles? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Just so the record is clear, in connection with the copy 11 that you received, did it have a copyright notice on it? 12 A. No, it did not. 13 Q. In connection with the copy that Father Groeschel had, did 14 that have a copyright notice on it? 15 A. No, it did not. 16 Q. In connection with the copies that Cal Hatcher received of 17 the course, did that have a copyright notice on it? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Now, I believe you also testified concerning who may have 20 then been Mr. Mundy or may have become Dr. Mundy. What was his 21 first name? 22 A. John. 23 Q. Did there come a time when Jon Mundy met with Helen or Bill 24 concerning the course? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
421 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 Q. And what was Dr. Mundy at that point in time? 2 A. He was a reverend. He was a minister. 3 Q. What was he at that point in time when you met Helen and 4 Bill? Was he a student, was he already a minister? 5 A. He was already a minister. He was a doctoral student, but 6 he never completed his studies. 7 Q. Was he a minister in what type of church? 8 A. Methodist church. 9 Q. Were you present when he met with Helen or Bill? 10 A. The first meeting was in my apartment. 11 Q. Who was there at that meeting? 12 A. Helen, myself and Father Groeschel. 13 Q. What was discussed at that meeting, as you can recall 14 concerning the course? 15 A. John knew nothing about it. It was basically an 16 introduction to him. I forget exactly what Helen and Bill 17 said, but they briefly told him the story, how it was written 18 and basically what it was. 19 Q. And about how long a period of time did they spend 20 together? 21 A. It was an evening. Helen never liked long evenings, so 22 probably an hour and a half, two hours at best. 23 Q. Was it at that time or at a later time that Reverend Mundy 24 got part or all of the course? 25 A. I don't know for sure. It would be a part of the course SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
422 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 that evening or soon afterwards. 2 Q. Do you know if he received all of the course material? 3 A. I don't know if he received it right then. Eventually he 4 did. 5 Q. And when he received the course material was it what we 6 have been describing as the uncopyrighted manuscript or -- 7 A. The uncopyrighted. 8 Q. And was that before or after Judy Skutch Whitson on May 29, 9 1975 received her copy? 10 A. It was before. 11 Q. Now, just so -- and just so the record is clear, I believe 12 you testified that Bill Thetford, of course, received one or 13 more copies of the manuscript, is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And do you remember how many copies he received? Because 16 there seems to be some story about it. 17 A. There are different versions. The original, the urtext, 18 what we call the urtext, which was the typed copy, there are 19 only four copies. 20 Q. How about what we are referring to as the copy that 21 eventually got published? How many copies of the uncopyrighted 22 manuscript did he receive? 23 A. There were -- I think there were like nine or ten copies of 24 that total. So he would have had -- there were one or two up 25 in the office. He had one. So he might have had one or two. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
423 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 I am not sure. 2 Q. And those didn't have a copyright notice on them either? 3 A. No, they did not. 4 Q. Is the name Hugh Lynn Cayce familiar to you? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. Did Hugh Lynn Cayce receive a full manuscript with no 7 notice of copyright on it, whichever version it was? 8 A. I believe it was a full version, but would not have had the 9 copyright on it. 10 Q. Do you recall approximately when Hugh Lynn Cayce got that 11 version? 12 A. It probably was 1972. 13 Q. And were you present when he got it? 14 A. No, I was not. 15 Q. Were you part of the scene at that time? 16 A. No, I was not. 17 Q. And how do you know that Hugh Lynn Cayce got a full copy? 18 A. Helen and Bill had told me. 19 Q. And do you know whether, sir, Hugh Lynn Cayce gave copies 20 of part or all of the course to his son? 21 A. I do not know that. 22 Q. Do you know whether Hugh Lynn Cayce gave part or all of the 23 course to a fellow named Herbert Puryear? 24 A. I do not. 25 Q. I am going to show you some documents that have been marked SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
424 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 as Defendants' Exhibit D, and these are certified copies of 2 documents that were filed in the copyright office. 3 I am going to show you what's been marked for 4 Defendants' Exhibit D. You may, of course, look at the early 5 letters in here. But particularly if you would look at what 6 are the last four letters in this grouping. You have a right 7 to look at all of them. 8 Doctor, have you ever seen those letters before? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. In fact, did you not file those letters in the copyright 11 office yourself? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And in reading those letters, does it refresh your 14 recollection that a copy was given to Hugh Lynn Cayce -- given 15 from Hugh Lynn Cayce to Herbert Puryear in whole or in part? 16 A. Yes, it does. 17 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that a copy of the course 18 was given in or around 1970 or '71 to Hugh Lynn Cayce's son at 19 that time? 20 A. Yes, it does. 21 Q. How did it happen that these documents came into your 22 possession? 23 A. I was in charge of the archives, an informal designation. 24 Helen and Bill were not very organized. They gave me the 25 various -- copies of the course in the versions as had evolved SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
425 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 over the years and correspondence. 2 Q. And did you then file these letters among others with the 3 copyright office? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And did you file them for copyright -- do you remember 6 under what title? I remember something about unwritten -- 7 A. The unpublished writings of Helen Shucman. 8 Q. You don't have any reason for me to believe that the 9 information contained in those letters is untrue, the four that 10 you looked at? 11 A. I have no reason to, no. 12 Q. Now, at the time you received A Course In Miracles -- and 13 just fix that date in my mind again. 14 A. I received it. It was May 1973. 15 Q. In May of 1973, had you by that time received a doctorate? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And had you published any articles or any books by that 18 time? 19 A. One article, I think. 20 Q. And you were aware, I'm sure, at that time of what 21 copyright was and what it meant? 22 A. I'm sure I was, yes. 23 Q. And by May of 1973, did you ever become aware of the fact 24 that Helen and Bill had published articles prior to that date? 25 A. Yes, I was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
426 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 Q. I think there had been some talk in earlier questioning 2 about Helen and Bill were part of Columbia University where 3 there was a publish or perish type of situation, is that 4 correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And Bill and Helen were aware of the copyright laws and the 7 fact that one could put a copyright notice on documents, isn't 8 that correct? 9 A. I assume they were. 10 Q. So we are clear, up until the time Judy Skutch gets her 11 copy of the course, there had never been a copyright notice put 12 on any copies of the course, is that right? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And do you know if there had ever been put on any copies of 15 the course a notice to the effect of, restricted, do not 16 distribute, anything like that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And, in fact, as I recall from the readings, originally the 19 intent of Helen was to get this book out to the world at some 20 point in time, is that correct? 21 A. No, that's not correct. 22 Q. She originally wanted to keep it secret from the people in 23 her college community, isn't that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That was her guilty secret, as you describe? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
427 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And there came a point in time, however, that I remember 3 reading in your book that the course was to be offered to the 4 world, however? 5 A. To be published, yes. 6 Q. Only when it was published? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. But the issue of copyright never came up, as I understand 9 it, until there was some sort of session where everyone sat 10 around and asked for guidance and it was determined at that 11 point in time to copyright the course, is that correct? 12 A. Not quite. Helen actually had received the guidance 13 herself and had shared it with us. I think that's how it 14 happened. It's probably in my book. 15 Q. I know. If I could only find it in your book, I would be 16 very happy. 17 Moving on to another area, could you explain to me at 18 this point in time what is the difference between -- I've been 19 told that I've been calling it FACIM and the pronunciation is 20 FACIM, which is the Foundation for A Course In Miracles. 21 A. We never really use that. 22 Q. It's my shorthand. I apologize. What is the difference in 23 the Foundation for Inner Peace and the Foundation for A Course 24 In Miracles? 25 A. They are two legally separated organizations. Basically, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
428 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 we have always seen the Foundation for A Course In Miracles as 2 the teaching organization of the Foundation for Inner Peace. 3 The Foundation for Inner Peace is the publisher of the course 4 and we hold the copyright for the course. 5 Q. Now, who actually publishes and distributes at this point 6 in time the course? 7 A. Foundation for Inner Peace. 8 Q. And the income from the publication of the course at this 9 point in time comes into which organization? 10 A. Foundation for Inner Peace. 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 12 THE WITNESS: Foundation for Inner Peace. Should I 13 say FIP? 14 Q. Whatever is comfortable for you. Don't change your lingo 15 for me, please. I'll change for you. 16 In connection with the Foundation for A Course In 17 Miracles, I believe you are the head of that organization? 18 A. Yes, I am. 19 Q. Who is on the board? 20 A. My wife, Gloria, and Judith Feinman. 21 Q. How long has Judith Feinman been on the board? 22 A. Two years. 23 Q. Has Ms. Skutch Whitson or any of the Skutch Whitson family 24 ever been on the board of the Foundation for A Course In 25 Miracles? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
429 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. And are you on the board of the Foundation for Inner Peace? 3 A. Yes, I am. 4 Q. Have you always -- at least since you've been around, have 5 you been on that board? 6 A. Almost always. 7 MR. ROSENBERG: I would say if he had been on the 8 board before he was around, I would want to hear that. 9 MR. FABIAN: Sorry for my shorthand. 10 Q. Now, I think you have just testified that the income from A 11 Course In Miracles goes to the Foundation for Inner Peace. 12 What is the source of revenue for the foundation for A Course 13 In Miracles at this point in time? 14 A. The books and tapes that I write and produce at workshops. 15 Q. Is that the sole source of funds? Are there any 16 sponsorship funds? 17 A. And donations. 18 Q. And just so I understand it, the Foundation for Inner Peace 19 is made up of Judith Skutch Whitson and Robert Skutch and 20 Ms. Skutch Whitson's present husband, Mr. Whitson. None of 21 them were the authors of A Course In Miracles, were they? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And I think that I also recall hearing that Ms. Skutch 24 Whitson's daughter receives income from the Foundation for 25 Inner Peace. Was she the author of A Course In Miracles? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
430 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. And did her daughter have any involvement with it in the 3 years say '70 to '80? 4 A. No. 5 Q. And you, sir, were not the author of A Course In Miracles, 6 is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And just so the record is clear, would you please tell the 9 world who you believe was the author of A Course In Miracles? 10 A. That's a difficult question, as you know. 11 Q. I'm told you can answer questions in under an hour. 12 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, I would object. The 13 authorship issue was determined on summary judgment. Whether 14 it was Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, Dr. Shucman, whether it was 15 scribe, that's all been resolved. That's not before us. And I 16 think a discourse on that issue, I think, is irrelevant to this 17 proceeding and actually is a complicated and lengthy issue. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 A. I have two hours? 20 Helen always had said that the source of the course 21 was Jesus, that her inner experience was that there was a voice 22 that she heard that dictated the course to her. So Helen would 23 always have said that the course came from him. 24 Q. Thank you for the short answer and I'm not wishing to 25 expand on it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
431 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 Wasn't it often said by the members, by Judith Skutch 2 Whitson and others, that Helen was merely the scribe in A 3 Course In Miracles? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. By that it was understood that she wrote down what the 6 voice, whoever the voice was told her? 7 A. That's correct, yes. 8 Q. Now, do you recall writing an article or being one of the 9 authors of an article which has been marked as Defendants' 10 Exhibit W which is a newsletter of the Foundation for A Course 11 In Miracles? I am going to ask you to take a look at it, 12 marked as Defendants' W. Please look at that and tell me if 13 you remember that article. 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Are you listed as one of the authors of that article? 16 A. Yes, I am. 17 Q. And were you in fact the writer of this article? Did you 18 do the writing or did someone else do it? 19 A. I was probably the principal author, yes. 20 Q. Now, in connection with this particular article, it states 21 as follows: Although Helen and William Thetford, her partner 22 in scribing the course, had known from the beginning that the 23 course was not intended for them alone, they could not imagine 24 it would ever become popular enough to require copyright 25 protection. Is that a true statement? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
432 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 A. Yes, it was. 2 Q. So, in fact, the intention initially was not to copyright 3 the course, is that correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. Next sentence, also, the idea of copyright struck all of us 6 as somewhat out of character when applied to a spiritual 7 teaching such as A Course In Miracles. Is that a correct 8 statement? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Initially, you were in agreement with the fact that a 11 copyright was out of character for this particular type of 12 work? 13 A. I think it struck us as kind of strange when Helen 14 announced to us that Jesus had said it should be copyrighted. 15 Q. Nonetheless, even though we could not envision a need for 16 the course to be copyrighted, we, of course, listened to Jesus 17 and proceeded to contact the copyright office of the Library of 18 Congress in Washington D.C. It then goes on to say: We were 19 informed that a copyright could not be granted to a nonphysical 20 author such as Jesus, nor to anonymous. Who was informed of 21 that fact? 22 A. I don't recall actually. I know the story of that, but I 23 don't remember who told me that. 24 Q. Could you relate the story, as best you can recall? 25 A. Basically, as it was, that the copyright office had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
433 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 informed us -- perhaps it was Bob Skutch, because he would have 2 been the one that would have called them -- that one couldn't 3 copyright a book under the name Jesus. It had to have a human 4 name, human author. 5 Q. Did you have any understanding at this point in time as to 6 how this issue came up, that the copyright office indicated it 7 couldn't be copyrighted under the name Jesus? 8 A. I would assume, based on that, that someone must have told 9 them, presumably Robert Skutch, that Jesus was the source of 10 material. 11 Q. Now, I'm looking at page 2 of this article. And it says: 12 In part, because of our experience with the translations and in 13 part because of the course's increasing popularity (there are 14 almost now one million copies -- and I believe that was in 15 December of 1992 -- in circulation) we were gradually led to 16 reconsider our policy regarding enforcement of the copyright. 17 What had been your previous policy before December of 18 1992? 19 A. I suspect it was a little looser. 20 Q. What does that mean? 21 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, I would object until a 22 foundation is laid at the time in reference to the fact that 23 Mr. Wapner's organization didn't hold the copyright. I would 24 like a foundation that he has knowledge of the policy, which he 25 well may. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
434 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 MR. FABIAN: Which is what I was asking. 2 Q. At that time did you have any knowledge of what the 3 principals were as to enforcement? 4 A. I did. It was not. 5 Q. Having said yes to that, can you tell us what your 6 recollection of what those were? 7 A. It was not my principal responsibility in those years, so 8 I'm a little vague about that. 9 Q. As best you recall. 10 A. That basically the copyright -- that we would generally 11 restrict the use of the copyright. Our concern was really that 12 the course not become a cottage industry, that it not be 13 excerpted, put on coffee mugs, greeting cards, et cetera, et 14 cetera, that we felt that in honor of Helen's wishes and also, 15 in terms of the dignity of the course itself, that it should 16 not be treated that way. 17 Q. But, in fact, as I believe you recall that the course was 18 excerpted by publication from the Foundation for Inner Peace, 19 is that correct, prior to that date? 20 A. That was William Thetford. 21 Q. Now, isn't it a fact, sir, that the reason the Foundation 22 for Inner Peace decided to make its guidelines more stringent 23 was because there had been a book published at or about that 24 time by Maryann Williamson concerning A Course In Miracles? 25 A. I don't think that was at that time. I am not sure of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
435 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 date of Maryann's book. 2 Q. But she did publish a book concerning the course? 3 A. Yes, she he did. 4 Q. It was a best seller, was it not? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 MR. ROSENBERG: Can we have a time frame? You said at 7 that time. 8 Q. I'm looking at Maryann Williamson's book, A Return to Love. 9 Do you recall that to be the name of the book? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It says: Copyright 1992, by coincidence, Maryann 12 Williamson. Does that refresh your recollection as to the date 13 of the book? 14 A. If it says it, obviously, that's the date, yes. 15 Q. As a matter of fact, the Foundation for Inner Peace 16 commenced a litigation against Ms. Williamson to stop that 17 book, didn't you? 18 A. I don't know if it was a litigation. There was discussion 19 certainly. 20 Q. Is the book still being published today? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. So was one of the reasons for the tightening of the 23 guidelines the fact that Maryann Williamson had produced a best 24 seller concerning A Course In Miracles? 25 A. I don't recall. It could have been, obviously, but I don't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
436 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 recall the specifics of that. I'm sorry. 2 Q. Do you recall whether the sale of the Maryann Williamson 3 book or any books relating to the course have decreased the 4 income which the foundation for A Course In Miracles receives 5 from your publications? 6 A. I don't think so, no. 7 Q. And do you know whether the sale of the Maryann Williamson 8 book or any other books concerning A Course In Miracles have 9 decreased the income -- I'll take that back -- have decreased 10 the sales of the book itself, A Course In Miracles? 11 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, by agreement of the 12 parties, the damage issue was reserved to follow the resolution 13 of this case. I would object on grounds of relevance to this 14 proceeding about income generated postcopyright from the sale 15 of this work. 16 MR. FABIAN: Again, this is not related to the damage 17 issue, your Honor. This is related to the intent of the 18 parties and whether the copyright itself is of any 19 significance. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 Q. Do you need the question read back? 22 A. Yes, please. 23 Q. I think, essentially, what I asked you, do you know whether 24 the sale of the Maryann Williamson book or any other books 25 relating to A Course In Miracles not published by FIP or not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
437 35lMpenT Wapnick - cross 1 published by you have decreased the sales of the book, A Course 2 In Miracles at all? 3 A. I do not know. 4 Q. Today, as I think you've testified, the book, A Course In 5 Miracles, is published by FIP itself? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. But at one time it was published by Penguin, is that 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And I believe there had been some prior testimony that 11 initially Helen Shucman had wanted A Course In Miracles to be 12 published by only a not for profit. Do you recall that? 13 A. Her original statement, which came in meditation, was that 14 it should be published by those for whom the course was the 15 most important thing in their life, something like that. 16 MR. FABIAN: Your Honor, I have no further questions. 17 If I can just go back to my staff and see if they are going to 18 tell me I have more questions. 19 I have no further questions. 20 MR. ROSENBERG: Redirect, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. ROSENBERG: 24 Q. Good morning, Dr. Wapnick. 25 A. Good morning, Mr. Rosenberg. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
438 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 Q. You were handed, I believe, during your cross-examination, 2 I think it's Defendants' Exhibit D, if my memory is correct, 3 that copyright packet, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And there is some letters there that were introduced on 6 which you were questioned regarding Hugh Lynn Cayce, correct? 7 A. Um-hum, that's correct. 8 Q. I'd like to draw your attention and sort of take them in 9 order. The first one that I see is dated August 20, 1970, is 10 that correct? Do you see that one? 11 A. Just give me a minute. Yes, I do. 12 Q. And it's a letter to Mr. Cayce at the ARE Institute and 13 it's from William N. Thetford, Ph.D., correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And in this letter it says in the second sentence, 16 referring to Dr. Shucman and Dr. Thetford: We did, however, 17 want to leave the four retyped volumes of the manuscript which 18 you were kind enough to read in an earlier form. 19 Have I read that correctly? 20 A. Yes, you did. 21 Q. And what is your understanding of why William Cayce -- Hugh 22 Lynn Cayce was provided with a copy of an early draft of the 23 manuscript? 24 MR. FABIAN: Your Honor, objection. If we could get 25 testimony as to what he heard or what was said as opposed to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
439 35lMpenT Wapnick - redirect 1 what he thinks. 2 MR. ROSENBERG: That's fine. 3 Q. Were you advised by Dr. Shucman or Dr. Thetford at any time 4 the circumstances under which they gave an early copy of the 5 manuscript to Hugh Lynn Cayce? 6 A. Yes, I was. 7 Q. What did they tell you? 8 A. That before the course had started to come through Helen. 9 In the late summer of 1965, they had visited Hugh Lynn Cayce to 10 share with him some of Helen's experiences. When the course 11 started to come through Helen in October of 1965, shortly after 12 that they went back down to see Hugh Lynn Cayce and at that 13 point shared with him some of the material that had been coming 14 through Helen. So I'm assuming that's what that is meant about 15 the earlier form and I would assume, from various things Helen 16 and Bill had told me, that they had sent him pages of the text 17 as it was coming through. 18 Q. In the third paragraph -- in the second, Dr. Thetford says: 19 The workbook which we mentioned to you last year, which is 20 intended to accompany the course, is still in progress. Since 21 you have been good enough to express an interest, we will be 22 glad to send you a copy when it is completed. First, did I 23 read that correctly? 24 A. Yes, you did. 25 Q. What line of work -- I know that's kind of a vernacular -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 |
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