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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes, it is.

        2    Q.  And I'm not going to go through -- here is one that I have

        3    to stop on, number 40.

        4    A.  Oh.

        5    Q.  What does that say?

        6    A.  That's my shorthand.  It says Holy 3.

        7    Q.  Who are the Holy 3?

        8    A.  That was my secret private name for Helen, Bill and Ken.

        9    Q.  Which you meant in good humor?

       10    A.  I meant affectionately.

       11    Q.  They get a copy of this three blue xerox?

       12    A.  Yes, they are 40 through 45.

       13    Q.  And turn to the middle, turn to 35 and 36.  It's Paul

       14    Steinberg?

       15    A.  And Roberta.

       16    Q.  Is that his wife?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  And then Saul Steinberg and Judy?

       19    A.  Yes, his wife.

       20    Q.  The Steinberg cousins, Paul and Saul, received copies of

       21    this blue Criswell edition?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  And Paul Steinberg had long ago returned the 8 and a half

       24    by 11 to you?

       25    A.  Yes, he did.

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        1    Q.  Well, did you end up distributing the blue edition?

        2    A.  Yes, I did.

        3    Q.  So what time frame are we in now?

        4    A.  Oh, the blue one would take us into 1976, the beginning of

        5    1976.

        6    Q.  So you have gone from late August '75 when you picked them

        7    up.  We had yellow, white and we had blue.  And we're now into

        8    late '75 and early '76.

        9    A.  That's right.

       10    Q.  And if someone suggested hundreds and hundreds of xerox

       11    copies of the manuscript had been distributed; is that true?

       12    A.  Yes.

       13    Q.  The Criswell edition?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  No fourth run of the Criswell edition?

       16    A.  No, there wasn't.

       17    Q.  Was there only 300 or so of A Course in Miracles

       18    distributed?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  What was the next process?

       21    A.  Late fall through the early winter of 1975 going into 1976

       22    people started to tell other people about it.  So by word of

       23    mouth, more people knew about it.  And I was still teaching at

       24    New York University.  One of the students in my class was an

       25    editor at Doubleday, and he requested an audience with Helen

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        1    and Bill.  And he wanted to talk to them about having Doubleday

        2    publish their manuscript.

        3    Q.  And any other meetings with publishers, any other steps

        4    towards having a new --

        5    A.  Yes, they entertained a meeting with Simon & Schuster, and

        6    the then other head, who was the partner and friend, a group

        7    came who wanted to do this privately.  They had a yoga center,

        8    and they wanted to take over the publishing and dissemination

        9    of the manuscript.

       10    Q.  What is the time frame of the publisher inquiries and

       11    visits?

       12    A.  It was probably November, December, January.

       13    Q.  November, December '75?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  January '76?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  Did you and the Holy 3, did you and Helen and Bill and Ken,

       18    was there any consensus or decision reached about publishing in

       19    a different form A Course in Miracles?

       20    A.  Well, we felt that this was going to be necessary, and

       21    that's why they allowed the visits with the various publishers.

       22    There was one other.  I don't remember if it was Harper &

       23    Collins or Putnam, I don't recall, but it was one of them.  We

       24    talked a lot about it and our motus operandi time was to sit

       25    and have a conversation and meditate on what the answer could

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        1    be.  And it became pretty clear that it probably should be

        2    published, and that's why they kept on seeing people.

        3    Q.  And my question was:  Was a decision or consensus reached

        4    among you on what the next step should be?

        5    A.  Yes, on February 14th, Valentine's Day, we felt we had seen

        6    enough people, and we sat quietly and asked formally again, was

        7    it supposed to be published?  And we got a very affirmative

        8    answer.  Nobody got the same answer.  It was, yes, I have a

        9    feeling it should be.

       10    Q.  You said February 14th, what year?

       11    A.  1976.

       12    Q.  Who was present at this meeting?

       13    A.  It was always Ken Wapnick, Helen Schucman, Bill Thetford

       14    and myself.

       15    Q.  What was the decision that was reached?

       16    A.  We should publish it.

       17    Q.  Did you reach a decision on who should publish it?

       18    A.  We did our process of selecting again, and what Helen felt

       19    was only those who spend the rest of their lives doing this and

       20    nothing but this should be the publishers, and it should be a

       21    not for profit organization, and it shouldn't be exerted,

       22    distorted in any way, that it had to be treated with dignity.

       23    Q.  Who was so designated?

       24    A.  We looked around the room and thought who that might be.

       25    Q.  Who was selected?

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        1    A.  We were surprised and Helen Schucman said well, I think

        2    your foundation is supposed to do it.

        3    Q.  Meaning?

        4    A.  The Foundation for Parasensory Investigation, which was

        5    going to change its name to Foundation of Inner Peace.

        6    Q.  Would Dr. Schucman let Parasensory Investigation publish it

        7    under that name?

        8    A.  Not at all.

        9    Q.  Was a new name chosen?

       10    A.  Yes, Foundation for Inner Peace.  It was supposed to be

       11    Foundation for Teaching and Inner Peace, but we were not a

       12    registered teaching organization in New York State.  So the

       13    teaching of it was taken out of the title.

       14    Q.  So the new name of your foundation became Foundation for

       15    Inner Peace?

       16    A.  That's correct.

       17    Q.  What is the name of the foundation today?

       18    A.  Foundation for Inner Peace.

       19    Q.  And was a decision reached then on this February 14th,

       20    Valentine's Day 1976 that the book would be published by

       21    Foundation of Inner Peace?

       22    A.  Yes, it was.

       23    Q.  What happened next of the further publication of this work?

       24    A.  Once I realized I was given this assignment, I was nervous

       25    because I realized we didn't have the money.  Having worked in

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        1    publishing for three years when I was very young, I knew it

        2    didn't cost pennies.  So I decided to go back into the process

        3    with them, where do we get the money?  And nobody had any

        4    feeling about it, but I very clearly felt in my interior voice,

        5    make the commitment first.

        6    Q.  Meaning make the commitment to publish it?

        7    A.  Money or no money.

        8    Q.  What was going to happen?

        9    A.  Who knew?

       10    Q.  What happened?

       11    A.  The very next day I got a call from Mazatlan from Reid

       12    Erickson the next morning.

       13    Q.  Who had a copy of the manuscript?

       14    A.  He had a couple in the reduced manuscript size.  I think he

       15    had two or three.

       16    Q.  What did he say to you in substance?

       17    A.  He said that he had a group of people in Mazatlan who spoke

       18    Spanish only who he knew, and he was already reading it to

       19    them.  He spoke English too, of course.  And he was giving his

       20    visions of what it meant and what it said.  And he felt that

       21    this was a very unwieldy kind of -- he felt that the book

       22    deserved better than this.

       23    Q.  Than a flimsy paper cover reduced paper back?

       24    A.  Yes, he felt it should be hard cover.

       25    Q.  What did he say?

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        1    A.  I said to him just hours the night before that we had this

        2    discussion, and he said, well, I'm calling to tell you that I

        3    have a very strong feeling and had it for a little while now, a

        4    week or so, and I have sold a piece of property and I'm sending

        5    your foundation a check and he chose the amount.

        6    Q.  What did he tell you the amount would be?

        7    A.  Here I'm not positive.  This seems to be in my memory.

        8    Q.  What do you remember?

        9    A.  It was 40 or $50,000.

       10    Q.  Did he send the check?

       11    A.  Yes, it came right away.

       12    Q.  That was for what purpose?

       13    A.  Publishing in typeset, printing a hard cover version of A

       14    Course in Miracles.

       15    Q.  What was the next step that was taken to get a hard cover

       16    edition published?

       17    A.  Since it was given to me to do this, I wondered what kind

       18    of printer I should use.  I had never done this before.  And

       19    within a few days I got a call from this gentleman Paul

       20    Steinberg who said that his cousin would like to print the

       21    book.

       22    Q.  That was the fellow Saul that you met on that rainy day?

       23    A.  He had a company Coleman Catalogs that printed catalogs and

       24    Saul would give us a good price because he cared about the

       25    material now, he had already ordered his own copy and he was

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        1    using it with some of the group in his plant.  They were

        2    reading lessons out loud.

        3    Q.  Saul received a copy of the Criswell edition?

        4    A.  Yes.

        5    Q.  As had Paul?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  What arrangements were made to print a hard cover edition

        8    of A Course in Miracles?

        9    A.  Well, Saul gave us an estimate, and he did some checking

       10    around and he chose a printer and he actually acted as our

       11    middle person.

       12    Q.  I don't want to digress with this, but it ended up that

       13    Saul Steinberg made more copies than he told you and sort of

       14    ripped you guys off, correct?

       15    A.  That's true.

       16    Q.  I don't think that's particularly germane.

       17             MR. FABIAN:  It's not subject to this litigation.

       18    Q.  I'll skip over that interesting side story.

       19             Good or bad, did, in fact, a hard cover, meaning

       20    Mr. Saul Steinberg, get published?

       21    A.  An edition was printed and bound in dark blue fabric and

       22    stamped with the name "A Course in Miracles" in three separate

       23    volumes.

       24    Q.  Now, was this just another xerox of the manuscript?

       25    A.  No.

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        1    Q.  Was it xerox of the Criswell manuscript?

        2    A.  No.

        3    Q.  What format did it take?

        4    A.  It was typeset.

        5    Q.  Who did the typesetting?

        6    A.  I thought that Saul Steinberg's firm did it.  To this day I

        7    don't really know.

        8    Q.  He arranged for it?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  Was there a proofreading to be done of the typesetting?

       11    A.  Yes.  In those days it wasn't like everything that was

       12    digitized and automated.

       13    Q.  What did they use as the template; what did they set the

       14    type from?

       15    A.  They set the type from the Eleanor Criswell.

       16    Q.  Version?

       17    A.  Manuscript, yes.

       18    Q.  Who did the proofreading?

       19    A.  We had four teams.

       20    Q.  And what did you proofread against?  You had the typeset

       21    version.  What did you proofread against?

       22    A.  We proofread it against the 8 and a half by 11 pages that

       23    we had.

       24    Q.  Easier to read for proofreading?

       25    A.  Yes, we had to.

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        1    Q.  Who were your proofreading teams?

        2    A.  Well, Helen and Ken were one team.  Bill Thetford and a

        3    very close friend who knew him and Helen very well was another

        4    one and Zelda Supree and Douglas Dean were the third team.  And

        5    my ex-husband, Robert Skutch, and I were the fourth team.

        6    Q.  So if there is testimony or it is suggested that Douglas

        7    Dean got a copy of the 8 and a half by 11 manuscript; is that

        8    true?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  For what purpose?

       11    A.  Well, he was proofreading with Zelda.  They each needed a

       12    copy.

       13    Q.  You mentioned Zelda.  If there is testimony that Zelda

       14    Supree got an 8 and a half by 11 copy of the manuscript; is

       15    that true?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17    Q.  For what purpose?

       18    A.  To proofread.

       19    Q.  Saul Steinberg and alike, did there come a time when there

       20    was a hard cover edition of A Course in Miracles?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  And how many volumes was it in?

       23    A.  In three.

       24    Q.  All blue, hard cover?

       25    A.  Yes, but that's not it.

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        1    Q.  This is as best we could do.  This is a later version of

        2    it, correct?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  Does this fundamentally -- Exhibit 12-1 and then there is

        5    Exhibit 12-2 and 3, does this look like the edition?

        6    A.  Yes, it's the same size and same layout.

        7    Q.  It's the exact same plates?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  This happens to be a later printing of that version?

       10    A.  Yes, the first cover was faded, and it faded easily and we

       11    weren't fond of it, so Helen changed her mind.

       12    Q.  When did the first printing of Exhibit 12 of this hard

       13    cover, three volume set come out?

       14    A.  June 22, 1976.

       15    Q.  You seem very clear of that date?

       16    A.  It was Douglas Dean's birthday, and we had a birthday party

       17    for him.

       18    Q.  This edition, which admittedly is a later printing, it says

       19    "copyright -- with a C -- 1975 by the Foundation of Inner

       20    Peace."  Have I read that correctly?

       21    A.  Yes, you have.

       22    Q.  If that inscription, if it, in fact, is an inscription, did

       23    those appear in the first printing in June 1976 of this hard

       24    cover three volume set?

       25    A.  Yes.

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        1    Q.  So by then had the foundation's name changed?

        2    A.  Yes, it had.

        3    Q.  At some point in time, did Bob Skutch ever get around to

        4    sending in that application for registration?

        5    A.  He must have.

        6    Q.  Did registration get issued for the copyright in A Course

        7    in Miracles?

        8    A.  Yes, it did.

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  By the way, I always forget, I move to

       10    introduce 12-1, 2 and 3.

       11             THE COURT:  They are admitted.

       12             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 received in

       13    evidence)

       14             MR. ROSENBERG:  And I move to introduce Exhibit 13,

       15    which is a copy of the registration of a claim to copyright in

       16    A Course in Miracles.  And there is actually -- there was a

       17    later additional copy of registration.

       18             I'm introducing as 13 a registration with the number

       19    693944, and it's dated a publication, one that says October 6,

       20    1975.  And the date, this seems to have been sent it seems to

       21    be November 24, 1975.  Since the registration is not at issue

       22    having been resolved, I want it to be introduced as an exhibit.

       23    Any objection?

       24             MR. FABIAN:  No objection.

       25             THE COURT:  It's admitted.

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        1             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 received in evidence)

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  And then I move as 14 a subsequent

        3    copyright registration that dealt with the manual for teachers

        4    only, teachers only, it looks like August 2nd.  It was received

        5    August 2, 1976, and the number on it is 805255, and I move to

        6    introduce that as Exhibit 14.

        7             THE COURT:  It's admitted.

        8             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 received in evidence)

        9    Q.  Now, does the Foundation for Inner Peace as of the present

       10    date still hold a copyright in A Course in Miracles?

       11    A.  No, it does not.

       12    Q.  Who holds the copyright in it?

       13    A.  A foundation called A Foundation for A Course in Miracles

       14    in Temecula, California.

       15    Q.  Who is the founder?

       16    A.  Dr. Kenneth Wapnick.

       17    Q.  And do you remember when The Foundation of Inner Peace

       18    transferred the copyright to The Foundation for A Course in

       19    Miracles?

       20    A.  I believe it was discussed for about four or five years and

       21    negotiated.  And I believe it was finally 1996.

       22    Q.  And an assignment of copyright and all of that has been

       23    registered and taken care of?

       24    A.  Oh, yes.

       25    Q.  Does FIP, however, still publish the book?

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        1    A.  Sorry?

        2    Q.  Does the Foundation for Inner Peace still publish A Course

        3    in Miracles?

        4    A.  Yes, it does.

        5    Q.  What is the current form of the publication?

        6    A.  The current form is the original hard cover set, as you see

        7    it, because we still have more of those left.  We did quite a

        8    few printings, and we have it in the form of all in one volume

        9    in the hard cover, and we have it in the form of all in one

       10    volume with a soft cover.

       11    Q.  And just to show the genesis and development of this, I'm

       12    placing before you 15.  Can you identify that?

       13    A.  Yes, I can.

       14    Q.  What is it?

       15    A.  This is a hard cover version of A Course in Miracles

       16    printed on what we call in the trade bible paper.

       17    Q.  The text, the teacher's manual and the workbook are all in

       18    that one volume?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  Would you agree that finally that's the most convenient

       21    form to carry it in?

       22    A.  There is one after that that is more convenient.

       23    Q.  What is that?

       24    A.  That's the same book but bound with a soft cover like a

       25    plasticized cover, one that bends and is maleable and it's in

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        1    one volume.

        2    Q.  A little easier than seven thesis binders?

        3    A.  I certainly know so, yes.

        4    Q.  Now, you were present in court proceedings early today

        5    where there was some issues about some tapes and what have you;

        6    do you recall that?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  And you have spoken a lot about A Course in Miracles a lot,

        9    have you?

       10    A.  Yes, I have.

       11    Q.  Before you get to that, actually your ex-husband -- you're

       12    no longer married to Robert Skutch?

       13    A.  No.

       14    Q.  He wrote a book; isn't that right?

       15    A.  Yes, he did.

       16    Q.  Do you remember when he started writing the book?

       17    A.  He started it, I believe, sometime in 1980.

       18    Q.  What was the status of your relationship with Robert Skutch

       19    at that time?

       20    A.  We were going through a divorce, a friendly one, I might

       21    say.

       22    Q.  And you're still friendly today?

       23    A.  He is our partner, yes.

       24    Q.  Still involved in The Foundation for Inner Peace?

       25    A.  Yes, he is the vice-president.

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        1    Q.  What is the name of the book?

        2    A.  Journey Without Distance.

        3    Q.  Did you read the entire book before it was published?

        4    A.  No, I did not.

        5    Q.  Did you read some parts of it?

        6    A.  He showed me a part that he told me eventually would put in

        7    italics, but it was quotes when I first saw it.

        8    Q.  And that part you read?

        9    A.  Yes, I did.

       10    Q.  Did you read anything else?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  Who published the book, if you know, at first?

       13    A.  A company called Celestial Arts in Berkeley, California.

       14    Q.  Did there come a time when the Foundation for Inner Peace

       15    published the book?

       16    A.  Yes, much later.

       17    Q.  Do you remember the year?

       18    A.  I really don't.

       19    Q.  If I were to state, and it's been on the record, that it is

       20    1996 --

       21    A.  That's right.  I was going to say '96, but it seemed late.

       22    Q.  As of that time had you personally read every page of the

       23    book as of the time that Foundation of Inner Peace published

       24    it?

       25    A.  No.

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        1    Q.  This litigation was commenced in what year, do you

        2    remember?

        3    A.  Probably 1996.

        4    Q.  I'll represent the case number says 96-4126.  In my

        5    experience that suggests that it would be 1996.  By the way,

        6    was I The Foundation for Inner Peace's counsel at that time?

        7    A.  No, you were not.

        8    Q.  Was my firm involved?

        9    A.  We didn't have the pleasure of knowing your firm at the

       10    time.

       11    Q.  Thank you for saying that.  I'll move to strike.

       12             There was a whole different law firm involved, right?

       13    A.  Yes, in California.

       14    Q.  After the litigation was commenced, a certain portion of

       15    this book, was it brought to your attention?

       16    A.  That's true.

       17    Q.  Is that correct?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  I'm going to read from page 110 and, again, Bob Skutch

       20    wrote this book, right?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  And I'm going to represent, Larry, you

       23    have a copy of the book.  I don't have an extra one.

       24             MR. FABIAN:  I don't have a copy, but I think I know

       25    the words.

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        1    Q.  There is some talk about Jim Bolen.  You have testified

        2    about Mr. Bolen, correct?

        3    A.  Yes, I have.

        4    Q.  And then it states, "The problem then arose concerning how

        5    he -- talking about Jim Bolen -- could work with the course.

        6    Judy had only one copy with her, and Jim decided the only thing

        7    to do was make a xerox copy.  Because of his publishing

        8    connections, he was able to have the job done in 24 hours and

        9    for only 48.  This was not going to be a very practical

       10    solution.  Not only was the material in this form much too

       11    cumbersome, but Judy didn't want to lend her copy to anyone

       12    else, yet she was absolutely certain that her professional

       13    friends who were involved in teaching --

       14             I'm sorry, this is not the right version -- I

       15    apologize.

       16             MR. FABIAN:  Which version were you intending read,

       17    John?

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  The original one.

       19             I'll continue where I left off.

       20             "He was able to have the job done in 24 hours and for

       21    only $48.  What's in the book continues.  "Obviously, this was

       22    not going to be a very practical solution.  Not only was the

       23    material in this form much too cumbersome, but Judy couldn't

       24    keep lending her copy out for 24 hours to everyone who wanted

       25    it.  Despite this expedient development, Jim's copy started to

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        1    be reproduced and those copies were then copied.  And before

        2    long, there were over a hundred people in the San Francisco

        3    area in possession of A Course in Miracles.

        4    Q.  I want to ask you a few questions:  Bob Skutch wrote that

        5    Judy couldn't keep lending her copies out for 24 hours out to

        6    anyone who wanted it.

        7             Did you lend your copy of the manuscript out to anyone

        8    who wanted it?

        9    A.  I did not.

       10    Q.  Have you testified to every individual that you provided a

       11    copy of the manuscript to, even a portion of it to?

       12    A.  Yes, I believe so.

       13    Q.  Did you ever see in Jim Bolen's possession more than the

       14    three copies of A Course in Miracles manuscript that he told

       15    you he made?

       16    A.  I never did.

       17    Q.  Did you ever see at any time until the Criswell edition

       18    came out, any one other than the small circle in possession of

       19    any part of A Course in Miracles?

       20    A.  I did not.

       21    Q.  Did you ever authorize anyone to make copies of the

       22    manuscript?

       23    A.  To the best of my knowledge, I never did.

       24    Q.  Did you ever authorize in any general sense that anyone who

       25    wanted this could make copies of it?

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        1    A.  Definitely not.

        2    Q.  And when Bob Skutch wrote, speaking of the manuscript, for

        3    24 hours to anyone who wanted it; is there any truth to that?

        4    A.  There is none.

        5    Q.  And then he wrote, Jim's copies started to be reproduced

        6    and those copies were copies, and before long there were 100

        7    people in the San Francisco area that had A Course in Miracles.

        8    To your knowledge, is that a true statement?

        9    A.  It is not.

       10             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to move to introduce Journey

       11    Without Distance, that page, 110, which according to the

       12    Court's ruling will be admitted.  I move to introduce it to

       13    evidence.

       14             MR. FABIAN:  As I understand, the book is in evidence.

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's fine.  I move the book into

       16    evidence.

       17             THE COURT:  Okay.

       18             Now, are you going to do anything with the hard

       19    copies, are you going to put those in?

       20             MR. ROSENBERG:  I thought I had moved everyone in.

       21             THE COURT:  I don't think you actually gave them.  So

       22    15 is.

       23             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 received in evidence)

       24             MR. ROSENBERG:  The one volume version that's

       25    currently --

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        1             THE COURT:  Okay, and 16 is the soft copy.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  16 is the Journey Without Distance

        3    book.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  Is that the Celestial Arts version?

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes, that's the Celestial Arts

        6    version.

        7             THE COURT:  They are all admitted.

        8             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 received in evidence)

        9    Q.  Bob Skutch's book has been changed, correct?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And it was changed after the Foundation of Inner Peace

       12    began to publish it, right?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  And it no longer says that at least in the soft cover

       15    version; is that your understanding?

       16    A.  In the soft cover it does not.

       17    Q.  Since this already came out, I can't do much about it, it

       18    might be attorney-client privilege, it's too late since it was

       19    on the record.  How did it come that that language was taken

       20    out of Journey Without Distance?

       21    A.  We were represented by a firm in California and their

       22    attorneys told us to change it to what was more truthful.

       23    Q.  And did you rely on the advice of counsel and change it?

       24    A.  That's the only reason we did it.

       25    Q.  And that was after the litigation was commenced?

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        1    A.  I believe so, yes.

        2    Q.  It was certainly after the dispute had arisen?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  I want to make this clear for a number of reasons.  Did I

        5    have anything to do with any recommendation that that be

        6    changed?

        7    A.  Not in the least.

        8    Q.  Did I even know you then?

        9    A.  You certainly did not.

       10    Q.  Did my firm have any involvement in the decision?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  Does that firm still represent you?

       13    A.  Thank goodness, no.

       14    Q.  While Bob Skutch wrote that book, he is not the only person

       15    who made statements about A Course in Miracles after the fact?

       16    A.  No.

       17    Q.  Did you ever do any public speaking?

       18    A.  Quite a bit.

       19    Q.  Do you still do any?

       20    A.  Very, very little, but once in a while I do, yes.

       21    Q.  How about in '76, '77, 78 into the 80s?

       22    A.  I traveled a great deal.

       23    Q.  If you had to estimate how many speeches about A Course in

       24    Miracles did you give?

       25    A.  I don't know that.  I couldn't estimate exactly, but one

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        1    year I traveled 100,000 miles and a few others pretty close to

        2    that, and I could have been speaking about it three times a

        3    week.  It's including workshops because sometimes it lasted for

        4    a weekend, sometimes four days and a few times a whole week

        5    workshop, but I would say in the high numbers.

        6    Q.  Hundreds and hundreds of times did you speak?

        7    A.  I don't know about hundreds and hundreds, but I would say a

        8    few hundred, yes.

        9    Q.  What was the general focus and purpose of your speeches

       10    that you gave?

       11    A.  To bring the message of the course.

       12    Q.  And did you sometimes as part of your speeches tell a

       13    version of the story of how A Course in Miracles was developed?

       14    A.  Usually people wanted to hear how it came, it was

       15    interesting.

       16    Q.  And, in fact, the course, the Foundation for Inner Peace

       17    itself has a video that's called, I think, How It Came?

       18    A.  That's correct.

       19    Q.  And that's presented by the Foundation for Inner Peace,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  Yes, it is.

       22    Q.  And you tell in part, it's maybe an hour or more video; is

       23    that right?

       24    A.  It's an hour.

       25    Q.  You talk on that tape?

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        1    A.  Partially.  I am one of the participants on that tape, yes.

        2    Q.  I'm going to read you something that we represent is your

        3    words on the tape.  Defendant's are more than familiar with it.

        4             You say "and while studying, I shared it with a lot of

        5    people.  I made many trips to California.  And while there I

        6    told a whole community of people I worked with the story of the

        7    course.

        8             Did you tell the story of the course to a lot of

        9    people in California?

       10    A.  I certainly told it to some people in California, and I

       11    would say many.

       12    Q.  Jim Bolen, Gerry Jampolsky, Eleanor Criswell, Russell

       13    Tarring?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  Naturally, they all wanted to see copies; is that literally

       16    true?

       17    A.  I'm afraid not.  There are a few not interested at all.

       18    Q.  Edgar Mitchell?

       19    A.  Among others.

       20    Q.  But many were interested?

       21    A.  That's true.

       22    Q.  And then you say with no reference to particular editions

       23    you say, "I was kept busy running off xerox copies of A Course

       24    in Miracles, and at five cents a page for a 1500 page document

       25    it was very expensive.

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        1             First of all, literally did you run xeroxes of copies

        2    in A Course in Miracles?

        3    A.  I ran off two in the very beginning when I traveled.

        4    Q.  Did that keep you busy?

        5    A.  It was 1500 pages and I did one of them on the machine by

        6    hand.

        7    Q.  Was it about five cents a page at that time?

        8    A.  I think at that time it was, yes.

        9    Q.  Was it expensive?

       10    A.  I would call $75 in those days very expensive.

       11    Q.  Who else was running off copies?

       12    A.  Eleanor Criswell, she, was busy preparing it for xeroxing.

       13    Q.  You said over and over again, you said this must be

       14    published in a form we can carry.  I went back to New York and

       15    discussed it with you and Helen.  This is Bill Thetford

       16    talking?

       17    A.  That's true.

       18    Q.  I want to make clear, did you ever, ever, ever, xerox

       19    multiple copies other than the ones you testified about of the

       20    manuscript of the course in 8 and a half by 11 form?

       21    A.  I did not.

       22    Q.  Now, there is another video that has been released, I

       23    believe, by the Foundation for Inner Peace.  If I can just have

       24    a moment to find my notes, and it's called The Story of A

       25    Course in Miracles.  Are you familiar with that video?

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        1    A.  Yes, I am.

        2    Q.  Have you listened to that prior to testifying today?

        3    A.  Yes, I have.

        4    Q.  And you speak on it and Bill Thetford speaks on it?

        5    A.  Among others, yes.

        6    Q.  And Bill says we met a large number of very eminent people

        7    in California as well as in New York who were serious students

        8    in the course; is that true?

        9    A.  Yes, it is.

       10    Q.  All of them wanted additional copies; is that true?

       11    A.  Yes, it is.

       12    Q.  All of them, many of them?

       13    A.  Many of them, yes.

       14    Q.  Everyone was dissatisfied with the fact that this is

       15    available, xeroxing hundreds and hundreds of material.  How was

       16    the Criswell edition made?

       17    A.  Xeroxing.

       18    Q.  Was it satisfactory?

       19    A.  It wasn't satisfying to us, no.

       20    Q.  What happened every time you ran out of the xerox?

       21    A.  We had to make more.

       22    Q.  So we had to entertain the idea of publication; is that

       23    true?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  What do you understand Mr. Thetford to be referring to by

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        1    publication?

        2             MR. FABIAN:  Objection as to what Thetford thought

        3    about when he made that statement.

        4             THE COURT:  Sustained.

        5    Q.  What did you refer to as publication of the Course in

        6    Miracles?

        7    A.  The hard cover three books in 1976 was what we called the

        8    publication.  The others we called the copies, the xerox

        9    copies.

       10    Q.  Now, on this tape on counter 57:41 I'm told you say the

       11    following, we looked around the room and realized there we

       12    were, but where was the money to come from, that was the only

       13    thing we didn't have.  We sat in quiet and I remember even the

       14    date that that happened.  It was Valentine's Day 1976.

       15             Have you already testified about this?

       16    A.  Yes, I did.

       17    Q.  And this is after the Criswell xerox of the manuscript was

       18    being disseminated?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  You said because as we sat quietly internalizing, asking

       21    the Holy Spirit, the voice of God and direct us and tell us the

       22    answer to that question, I heard something so clearly I

       23    couldn't deny it, and the answer was make the commitment first.

       24             That's consistent with your testimony today, correct?

       25    A.  Yes, it is.

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        1    Q.  And I'm not going to read all of this, and you talk about

        2    Reid Erickson calling, and you testified about that today,

        3    correct?

        4    A.  Correct.

        5    Q.  And you said he said to me, he being Reid, I'm studying the

        6    manuscript called The Course in Miracles given to me by your

        7    friend Zelda Supree, and I'm so delighted.  And he goes on to

        8    say, and then he said -- by the way, did Reid Erickson have a

        9    copy of the manuscript of A Course in Miracles?

       10    A.  He had the manuscript that we ran off, xerox copies that

       11    was much smaller than the 8 and a half by 11.

       12    Q.  The Criswell version?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  You don't deny that?

       15    A.  No.

       16    Q.  You said according to you on the tape, and I told him I was

       17    very glad to hear and we chatted a bit, and he said the form in

       18    which it is now is very unwieldy, you have to have it published

       19    in hard covered books; that's what you said on the tape,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  That's right.

       22    Q.  Is that what Mr. Erickson told you?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  What was the form that you had it in then in 1976?

       25    A.  It was the reduced size manuscript.

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        1    Q.  What was the next size that was published?

        2    A.  Hard cover.

        3    Q.  He told you you had to have it published in hard covered

        4    books, correct?

        5    A.  That's right.

        6    Q.  In addition to these tapes that Foundation of Inner Peace

        7    released, did you take issue with the statements you released

        8    there?

        9    A.  No.

       10    Q.  You said you gave 100 or more speeches.  Have you since

       11    learned that some of your speeches were tape recorded?

       12    A.  Yes, I have.

       13    Q.  And you were present during today's proceeding where there

       14    was a legal argument about whether certain tapes could come in

       15    and what have you?  Are you familiar with that?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  And based on the judge's preliminary

       18    ruling, as the Court said, I'll take them for what they are

       19    worth, I don't want this to be a concession that these are

       20    admissible because we still have our objection, but on the

       21    possibility that they are going to be considered, can we make

       22    inquiry?

       23             THE COURT:  Of course.

       24    Q.  Have you read some of those tapes?

       25    A.  I have read transcripts of some of them, yes.

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        1    Q.  Out of the possible hundreds and hundreds of speeches,

        2    there are maybe a half of a dozen that are of interest to the

        3    defendants?

        4    A.  I forgot the number, but I think it is probably in that

        5    realm.

        6    Q.  Is everything you said on those recordings true?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  Did you make misstatements?

        9    A.  I'm afraid I did.

       10    Q.  I'm going to read one of the excerpts of a tape that's

       11    trying to be introduced, which is actually, I believe, it's in

       12    evidence, New Mexico, so called, Santa Fe tape, have you

       13    listened or read a transcript of that tape?

       14             MR. FABIAN:  Just to make the record clear, you have

       15    admitted the Mexico tape way back in your first in limine

       16    motion statement.  There was no question about the authenticity

       17    of that one.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  That is correct.  I'm going to read to

       19    you from the transcript presented by the defendants.  It was

       20    very natural for me to take this material with me and say to my

       21    good friends, hey, look, look what I've got.  Do you want to

       22    read this?  They wanted to read it.  In fact, many people

       23    xeroxed the original pages, $75 for 1500, and a nickel a page.

       24    That's a lot of money just to have the material.  It was for

       25    anyone who wanted it, and it seemed very right that people

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        1    would pass it along, copy it over and copy it over until

        2    finally people's copies were getting so light that they

        3    couldn't see them any more.  And a few of us got together and

        4    recognized the need to put it in some kind of a form that was

        5    easier to read.  And out of that came very small little

        6    paperbacks that the print was so small that you need a

        7    magnifying glass.

        8             I have read that from the transcript.  Do you accept

        9    that that's your voice on the tape?

       10    A.  Yes, I do.

       11    Q.  Do you accept that you said that?

       12    A.  I probably did, yes.

       13    Q.  Do have you any reason to doubt it?

       14    A.  I have no reason whatsoever to doubt it.

       15    Q.  Are they entirely true?

       16    A.  No, they are not.

       17    Q.  Leaving Criswell aside, did many people xerox the original

       18    papers?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  Did people copy copies until they were getting so light

       21    they couldn't see them any more?

       22    A.  I had no information to back that up.

       23    Q.  And then you said, I submit, we needed to put it in a form

       24    that was easier to read, and then you say you put it in one

       25    that was so small you needed a magnifying glass; is that easier

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        1    to read?

        2    A.  No, it is not.

        3    Q.  Is that what happened?

        4    A.  No, it wasn't.

        5    Q.  There are other tapes where you say some of them, we'll use

        6    them, by the way, that are consistent with the Criswell story,

        7    others suggested some copying was going on.

        8             Under oath are you aware of any widespread copying in

        9    A Course in Miracles in 8 and a half by 11 inch form?

       10    A.  I certainly am not.

       11    Q.  With all respect, what were you doing here?

       12    A.  I can only say that I was a spontaneous public speaker

       13    enlisted in this job.  I didn't use prepared speeches.  I was

       14    extremely enthusiastic.  I was telling stories, a narrative

       15    story teller.  I come from a long line of story tellers and my

       16    tradition also is part of story telling.

       17    Q.  Did you exaggerate?

       18    A.  Yes, embellished, exaggerated.  I sort of plugged it out of

       19    the air and put it in a form that people would be enthusiastic

       20    about, but I didn't have any intention to deceive, and I'm

       21    sorry I did it.

       22    Q.  What were you trying to tell the audience for these

       23    different speeches; what was the sentiment?

       24    A.  I was trying to express the enthusiasm of people, trying to

       25    inflame the interest of the audience.

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        1    Q.  How was their enthusiasm for the course?

        2    A.  Oh, great.

        3    Q.  Was there enthusiasm for hundreds and hundreds of the

        4    Criswell?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  Did you mold or exaggerate the story?

        7    A.  I shortened it.  I changed it around and sometimes I gave

        8    different versions, and sometimes I even told people which

        9    story do you want?  It was --

       10    Q.  There was one speech where you say which story do you want?

       11             MR. FABIAN:  Objection to the leading.

       12    Q.  Is there something on the tape, one of the tapes where you

       13    say something about different versions?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  What do you say?

       16    A.  Well, I said which story do you want?  And I also said

       17    something like, the people there were asking me to tell a story

       18    that was told many times, and I wanted to get to the crux of

       19    the matter, which is what the material was about, which was the

       20    purpose I was there.  And I just shortened it sometimes.  I

       21    moved it around sometimes.  There are times when one could say

       22    tremendous hyperboles where I told the story like Dr. Thetford

       23    where his wife was afraid of flying, and to this day he has her

       24    nail marks on his palm.  I do that.  That's the way I am.  This

       25    is the way I speak.

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        1    Q.  Did you do that today?

        2    A.  I did not do that today.

        3    Q.  What have you dedicated the last 25 or almost 30 years of

        4    your life to?

        5    A.  28 years to disseminate A Course of Miracles.

        6    Q.  What does it stand for to you?

        7    A.  It has a consistent thought system of love and forgiveness.

        8    It talks about honesty which is the consistency of thought and

        9    action.  It talks about relationship, and how we can see past

       10    devisiveness, and how we can in our minds and in our hearts see

       11    another person as not the shape or the form or the color or the

       12    size, but truly see them in spirit.

       13    Q.  You mentioned honesty.  Is that one of the fundamental

       14    components of the course?

       15    A.  It's a very important one.

       16    Q.  To save the copyright -- you're how old, 72 years old?

       17    A.  72.

       18    Q.  To save the copyright, would you lie to the Court?

       19    A.  No, I would not; I couldn't.

       20    Q.  What would that say?

       21    A.  It would negate everything I believe in.

       22    Q.  Have you done that today?

       23    A.  No, I have not.

       24             THE COURT:  Tomorrow morning, 9:30.

       25             Thank you very much.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

                                                                           214

             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1             (Case adjourned to May 20, 2003 at 9:30 a.m.)

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                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

                                                                           215

             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1                           PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS

        2    Exhibit No.                                     Received

        3     10    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   174

        4     2   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    46

        5    3 and 4 ......................................   132

        6     6   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   151

        7     9   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   163

        8     12-1, 12-2, 12-3    . . . . . . . . . . . . .   191

        9     13    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   192

       10     14    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   192

       11     15    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   199

       12     17    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   200

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       14                           DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

       15    Exhibit No.                                     Received

       16     A   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     6

       17    ORLANDO GATILLO

       18    Direct   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     5

       19    Cross By Mr. Rosenberg . . . . . . . . . . .    20

       20    Redirect By Mr. Fabian . . . . . . . . . . .    41

       21    THOMAS J. OWEN

       22    Direct Mr. Fabian  . . . . . . . . . . . . .    46

       23    Cross By Mr. Fabian  . . . . . . . . . . . .    51

       24    JUDITH SKUTCH WHITSON

       25    Direct By Mr. Rosenberg  . . . . . . . . . .    55

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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