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        1    we have an extra copy for the Court?

        2             Take a moment, if you would, look at Exhibit 8 and

        3    draw your particular attention to the fourth page.  Is that

        4    your signature?

        5    A.  Yes, it is.

        6    Q.  And this is a declaration or an affidavit that you signed

        7    under penalty of perjury and these proceedings; is that

        8    correct?

        9    A.  Yes, it is.

       10    Q.  Did you read it before you signed it?

       11    A.  I did read it, yes.

       12    Q.  And do you notice the date on which you signed it?

       13    A.  December 15, 1999.

       14    Q.  Which is three and a half years ago, correct?

       15    A.  Yes, it is.

       16    Q.  In that time in these proceedings, did you locate the list,

       17    Exhibit 7?

       18    A.  I don't believe I had, yet.

       19    Q.  After that is my point?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  After you submitted this affidavit?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  Also that PG&E gas bill that was introduced, I think

       24    Exhibit 5, did you find that after you submitted this

       25    affidavit?

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        1    A.  Yes, a good bit after.

        2    Q.  Did that help you confirm and establish the time frame that

        3    you have testified about today?

        4    A.  Oh, immensely.

        5    Q.  I'm going to draw your attention to page two of this

        6    affidavit, and I'm going to read paragraph four.  "On or about

        7    October 6, 1975, I arranged to have Free Person Press publish A

        8    Course in Miracles in a four volume set.  Each volume contained

        9    a copyright notification."

       10             First of all, have I read that correctly?

       11    A.  Yes, you have.

       12    Q.  And is it true that Free Person Press published the course

       13    in Miracles in a four volume set?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  And that's Exhibit 6, the yellow, the blue, the white

       16    copies, correct?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  Is it true that each volume contained a copyright

       19    notification?

       20    A.  Yes, it is.

       21    Q.  Is it true that it was published on or about October 6,

       22    1975?

       23    A.  No, that is not true.

       24    Q.  How certain are you that it was in August as you have

       25    testified today?

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        1    A.  Those lists and the bill helped me really place it.

        2    Q.  Where did that -- that's a very precise date October 6,

        3    1975.  Where did that date come from?

        4    A.  Bob Skutch, my ex-husband.

        5    Q.  Who drafted in the initial from that affidavit?

        6    A.  My attorney.

        7    Q.  You did have a chance to review it?

        8    A.  Yes, I did.

        9    Q.  That date was inserted by counsel in the first draft,

       10    right?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  Where did that date come from?

       13    A.  Well, the date came from a registration form that Robert

       14    Skutch, my ex-husband, signed and filled out and sent, I

       15    believe, to the copyright office.

       16    Q.  And that's where the attorneys got the October 6th date of

       17    publication, correct?

       18    A.  I believe it was.

       19    Q.  And at the time that you signed this affidavit, were you

       20    trying to mislead anybody?

       21    A.  No; no, I was not.

       22    Q.  But you're quite certain, one hundred percent, you said

       23    that the Free Person Press, the Criswell edition was completed

       24    in August of '75 before you came back to New York around Labor

       25    Day?

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        1    A.  Yes, I am.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to place before the witness

        3    what's been marked as Exhibit 9 -- by the way, I don't know if

        4    I need to introduce the affidavit technically, but it's been

        5    used in a sense to impeach my own witness.

        6             MR. FABIAN:  I would object that there are lots of

        7    exhibits attached to it.  For the limited purpose of discussing

        8    paragraph 4, that's fine.

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's the only purpose I'm using it

       10    for.

       11             THE COURT:  It's admitted.

       12             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 received in evidence)

       13    Q.  I place before you an application for registration for A

       14    Course in Miracles copyright.  Do you notice the date of

       15    October 6, 1975 appears?

       16    A.  Yes, I do.

       17    Q.  Under date of publication?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  And did you fill out that form?

       20    A.  No, I did not.

       21    Q.  And is that date correct?

       22    A.  The date of publication was not October 6th.

       23    Q.  But that's how it found its way in your affidavit?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  So we're now back in our recitation and you have returned

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        1    to New York right around Labor Day you said.  Your mother's

        2    birthday was around there?

        3    A.  August 30th was my mother's birthday.

        4    Q.  And you had to teach some courses at NYU?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  At you got back, you had some of the yellow sets with you;

        7    is that correct?

        8    A.  I did.

        9    Q.  And you met and saw Joe Janus?

       10    A.  Yes, somewhat after that.

       11    Q.  When did you place that by looking at Exhibit 7?  By

       12    looking at Exhibit 7, when do you place that?

       13    A.  He is number 41, so it certainly wasn't early in September.

       14    We had given out some in California.  I had given out some in

       15    California.  I think I had either visited Kent State or mailed

       16    some.  And he is after Kenneth Wapnick, Bill Thetford, Helen

       17    Schucman receiving their copies.

       18    Q.  So you placed this sometime in September of 1975?

       19    A.  It was warm.  I remember that because I remember what he

       20    was wearing --

       21    Q.  I'm not going to go through the whole detail of the

       22    meeting.

       23             Did you give Joe Janus a copy of the Criswell yellow

       24    manuscript?

       25    A.  Yes, I did.  It's right on here (indicating).

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        1    Q.  This list confirms that?

        2    A.  Yes.

        3    Q.  Do you have any recollection of giving him part of the --

        4    you still have your copy of the original 8 by 11?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  And do you remember whether you gave him -- first, did you

        7    show him some of the original?

        8    A.  I did.  I was -- when he came to visit my ex-husband, Bob

        9    Skutch, it was just for that purpose, to visit Bob Skutch.  As

       10    he was leaving my apartment, he passed by.  I said hello to

       11    him.  He was in another room.  He saw a black thesis binder

       12    lying open because it was much easier for me to read and study

       13    from this than from these Eleanor Criswell, that we call them

       14    now, minuscripts.

       15    Q.  The Eleanor Criswell is quite tiny?

       16    A.  Yes, the reduction made it that way.

       17    Q.  So you still sometimes studied out of your 8 and a half by

       18    11?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  What happened in regard to that?

       21    A.  Well, I told him I had something interesting to tell him,

       22    that I thought he would find fascinating because of his work.

       23    And he had worked at the J.B. Ryan Laboratory, which is one of

       24    the earliest investigators of extra sensory perception in the

       25    40s.

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        1             I don't know if he was a proffesor or instructor at, I

        2    believe it was, University of North Carolina.  Anyway, it was

        3    in Durham, and he had lectured for me once when I put on a

        4    conference at New York University, a public conference.  And he

        5    had been a lecturer there.  I had invited him.  So I knew him

        6    as a colleague.  I knew him more as a colleague than as a

        7    friend.  I told him the story briefly.  He was very interested

        8    in the story and the people.  He wanted to meet the people

        9    right away.  I told him I would have to call and ask, but that

       10    might be able to be arranged if they would.

       11    Q.  You said you gave him the Criswell copyrighted edition?

       12    A.  You're asking me to tell you what happened.

       13    Q.  Did you also, you said you had your 8 by 11 in front of

       14    you?

       15    A.  Yes.

       16    Q.  Did you give him any of that?

       17    A.  Well, he wanted to see it in that form too, and I could

       18    have given him a very --

       19    Q.  My question is real simple.

       20             Did you give him any of the 8 and a half by 11?

       21    A.  To the best of my recollection, I didn't.

       22    Q.  You gave him none of it?

       23    A.  I don't remember.

       24    Q.  Is it possible you gave Joe Janus some?

       25    A.  It is definitely possible.  I could have, yes.

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        1    Q.  Easier to read?

        2    A.  For that purpose.

        3    Q.  Did you give him the entire 1500 pages?

        4    A.  No, I didn't.  But he was going back to his hotel and I had

        5    arranged for him to meet Helen and Bill the next day.  And if I

        6    did give him some pages, he was going to bring them back the

        7    next day.

        8    Q.  He had the copyrighted entire edition?

        9    A.  This one, certainly.

       10    Q.  That's confirmed number 47?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  I'm going to move all the way down.  There are all of these

       13    different names.  I'll leave that for cross examination if

       14    there is any questions, but move down to 102 and 103.  So we're

       15    almost near the end of the first run of the xeroxes, correct?

       16    A.  Correct.

       17    Q.  What does 102 and 103 say on Exhibit 7?

       18    A.  Copyright, copyright.

       19    Q.  What does that mean?

       20    A.  Those are the two copies that I gave Bob Skutch when he had

       21    to send them to the copyright office to register the copyright

       22    with the copyright office.

       23    Q.  If you have to estimate based on the fact that you got the

       24    manuscripts in late August, you returned to New York in late

       25    August or early September, you met with Joe Janus in

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        1    mid-September, when do you think you gave Bob Skutch the 102,

        2    103 for copyright registration?

        3    A.  Well, this suggests to me that I gave it to him sometime

        4    late September, early October.

        5    Q.  And what's the date that Bob Skutch wrote on that copyright

        6    application on the date of first publication?

        7    A.  October 6th.

        8    Q.  About the time that you gave him the books?

        9    A.  Or that he asked me to give it to him.

       10    Q.  Which, in fact, had been printed a month?

       11    A.  A little more.

       12    Q.  Than a month earlier?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  I notice another name here, 105, Reid Erickson?

       15    A.  Yes.

       16    Q.  And to move this along, as quickly as I can, who is Reid

       17    Erickson?

       18    A.  He was the founder of the Erickson Educational Foundation.

       19    He was living in Mazatlan, New Mexico.  He was studying through

       20    Dr. Criptner and his president Zelda Supree.  He was very

       21    interested in metaphysics and I had met him before.

       22    Q.  Now, there are some statements in the case that may come

       23    out that either you or through Zelda Supree gave Reid Erickson

       24    a copy of the manuscript?

       25    A.  I did.

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        1    Q.  What did you give him?

        2    A.  We sent him that.  It's on the list.

        3    Q.  Meaning the manuscript from the Criswell edition?

        4    A.  The reduced size manuscript in the yellow binders is what

        5    Reid Erickson got, and I have it written down.

        6    Q.  Did you ever refer to the Criswell xerox reduced as the

        7    manuscript?

        8    A.  I always did.

        9    Q.  Is it the manuscript?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  But it has a copyright notice?

       12    A.  Yes, it is only today that the people call it the Criswell.

       13    Q.  Until this litigation, did you ever hear of it called as

       14    the Criswell edition?

       15    A.  Not at all.

       16    Q.  Is it a fair event that all of us have created that to talk

       17    about it in the litigation?

       18    A.  I'm afraid so.

       19    Q.  What did you call it back then?

       20    A.  It was the manuscript.

       21    Q.  And that's what it was?

       22    A.  It was the reduced version of the manuscript.  I'm pointing

       23    to the 8 and a half by 11, and this was the manuscript.

       24    Q.  And there is no doubt in your mind that Reid Erickson got a

       25    copy of the manuscript, meaning what we call the Criswell

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        1    edition?

        2    A.  That's correct.

        3    Q.  I'm going to try to move down the list quickly, all the way

        4    down to 123, a Paul Steinberg; did you know Paul Steinberg?

        5    A.  Yes, I had just recently met him.

        6    Q.  And how did you meet Paul Steinberg?

        7    A.  He called me and he said that he had heard about a document

        8    that was metaphysical in nature, and that he was teaching a

        9    group or he was studying with a group, metaphysical subjects,

       10    in Long Island, New York, and that he was very excited to hear

       11    about this, but he had a dream or a vision or something like

       12    that where it was told to him that he would be receiving the

       13    teachings of the Master J.  It was a little strange to me, but

       14    I had spoke to Helen and Bill and told them, and they said,

       15    well, he could come up.

       16    Q.  When did you meet him for the first time, do you know?

       17    A.  I can't tell you the exact date.  I remember that it was

       18    raining cats and dogs very hard in New York, and it was chilly

       19    out because he came in with a heavy raincoat and so did another

       20    gentleman that came with him.

       21    Q.  Who was that other gentleman?

       22    A.  I believe it was his cousin named Saul Steinberg.

       23    Q.  We're talking about Paul and Saul.

       24             Paul was the gentleman that had an interest in

       25    metaphysics?

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        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  Not his cousin, Saul?

        3    A.  Saul had no interest.

        4    Q.  He was trying to arrange for a hard cover edition?

        5    A.  Paul.

        6    Q.  Now, I notice in Exhibit 7 that you write down next to Paul

        7    Steinberg's name -- first of all, Paul Steinberg's name written

        8    at 123 signifies what?

        9    A.  That I gave him what we call now the Eleanor Criswell

       10    manuscript.

       11    Q.  But it says copies of 8 and a half by 11 all?

       12    A.  Right.

       13    Q.  That's your handwriting?

       14    A.  That's mine.

       15    Q.  What did that signify?

       16    A.  He wanted to look at it for study, and he asked could he

       17    borrow it for a week?  And I cannot tell you that Helen and

       18    Bill were actually there that day, but I know they were there

       19    when he came back.  I lent him the document for a week along

       20    with giving him -- I don't know if I gave it to him as a gift

       21    yet.  I have to look.  What number is he again?

       22             Yeah, he paid for it.

       23    Q.  So you sold him the Criswell edition?

       24    A.  I can't say that's true because at that point I got

       25    sloppier and I put checks next to some and he has no check.

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        1    Q.  In either event, you gave or provided Paul Steinberg with

        2    the Criswell edition?

        3    A.  Yes, I did.

        4    Q.  And you gave him the whole 8 and a half by 11?

        5    A.  That's right.

        6    Q.  Did you authorize him to copy it?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  Did you tell him anything about copying it?

        9    A.  He heard plenty with copying, and I told him what their

       10    nature were like and how quiet it had to be, and that this was

       11    for him only and he could look it over for the week.

       12    Q.  I notice that after the Criswell edition you were studying

       13    sometimes from the original manuscript; why was that?

       14    A.  This was kind of hard to read and I had just become 44 and

       15    my eyesight needed a little help.

       16    Q.  When this case began, I didn't wear glasses, I will

       17    mention.

       18             Mr. Steinberg also wanted to study it?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  You lent him the 8 and a half by 11?

       21    A.  That's right.

       22    Q.  Did he bring it back?

       23    A.  Yes, he did.

       24    Q.  How long thereafter?

       25    A.  I would say within a week, maybe a few days before or

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        1    after.

        2    Q.  Now, according to this list, there are about 125 of the

        3    yellow what we now call Criswell editions.  What happened when

        4    those were all distributed?

        5    A.  Before they were all distributed, we noticed more people

        6    were interested than we thought.

        7    Q.  There was, fair to say, a burning interest in A Course in

        8    Miracles?

        9    A.  Let's say a little ground swell.  And I called up Eleanor

       10    Criswell and asked her could she please make sure another

       11    hundred copies were xeroxed in Kopy Kat at Berkeley in the same

       12    way.  And would she put a different color on it so we could

       13    distinguish.

       14    Q.  What color cover did Dr. Criswell put on the second set of

       15    manuscripts?

       16    A.  White.

       17    Q.  Otherwise it was identical?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  How much were you -- you did give quite a few away,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  When you sold them, how much did you sell them for?

       23    A.  $50.  I have it written down here on the list.

       24    Q.  Is that more, in fact, than the book cost today in hard

       25    cover?

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        1    A.  Well, the book today in hard cover is not $50.  It is less.

        2    Q.  So this was a fairly expensive proposition at the time,

        3    even the Criswell edition?

        4    A.  Yes, but xeroxing is expensive.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to approach the witness with

        6    Exhibit 10, which I'll represent is a handwritten document,

        7    four pages long.  It says, Course in Miracles, new white books,

        8    begins with a number one an ends -- well, it goes to 100, but

        9    there is only writing up to page 94".

       10             MR. FABIAN:  I don't think I have ever seen this

       11    document before.

       12             MR. ROSENBERG:  Just so there is no apprehension, you

       13    questioned this witness and Robert Skutch about this document.

       14             MR. FABIAN:  I don't recall seeing it.

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  I want to make this clear this was

       16    questioned at depositions as being provided to Mr. Fabian.

       17             Your Honor, I move to admit Exhibit 10.

       18             THE COURT:  Admitted.

       19             (Government's Exhibit 10 received in evidence)

       20    Q.  Would you be kind enough to identify Exhibit 10?

       21    A.  It's a list of 1 to 100 of the new white books of the

       22    course in Miracles that I distributed subsequently to the

       23    yellow when they were all used up.

       24    Q.  What time frame are we in now, if you had to estimate based

       25    on all that we covered?

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        1    A.  I would guess November.

        2    Q.  Of?

        3    A.  1975.

        4    Q.  And I'm going to go through this really quickly.  If

        5    Mr. Fabian cares to on cross examination, I'll let him.

        6             Do you remember going to a board meeting for the

        7    Noetic Science Institute sometime around November of 1975?

        8    A.  Yes, I do.

        9    Q.  You were still on the board of that institution at that

       10    time?

       11    A.  Oh, yes.

       12    Q.  Do you notice number eight on this list?

       13    A.  Yes, I do.

       14    Q.  What does that refer to?

       15    A.  That represents a copy that I presented to someone who was

       16    going to be at that board meeting on behalf of our foundation

       17    to the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

       18    Q.  Do you have a recollection of when that Noetic Science

       19    board meeting was?

       20    A.  It was very late October of 1975.

       21    Q.  So as to number eight, does that give you a frame of

       22    reference for the time of this list?

       23    A.  Oh, yes, it would, because that's when the meeting was.

       24    Q.  And then, by the way, above that I see Eleanor Criswell.

       25    You gave a gift of a number of volumes of her own edition, now

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        1    that it is called that, to her?

        2    A.  Yes, it would mean that she kept them.

        3    Q.  Number nine it says Osmond Crosby?

        4    A.  That's correct.

        5    Q.  Who is that?

        6    A.  He was a fellow director of noetic sciences.

        7    Q.  Did you ever show A Course in Miracles prior to selling him

        8    or giving him the Criswell edition?

        9    A.  Yes, I did.

       10    Q.  When was that?

       11    A.  The day of the board meeting.

       12    Q.  What edition did you show him?

       13    A.  It was white though.

       14    Q.  So the record is clear, you showed Osmond Crosby the

       15    Criswell edition?

       16    A.  Yes, the reduced size manuscript called the Criswell

       17    edition.

       18    Q.  At the Noetic Science meeting in late October '75?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  Did you ever show him the 8 and a half by 11?

       21    A.  There was no reason to.  No, I did not.

       22    Q.  The answer is you did not.  We're already in October of

       23    '75.

       24             Did you travel with the 8 and a half by 11 in October

       25    of '75?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  After I received the first yellow editions I didn't travel

        2    that I can remember any more with that heavy bunch of papers.

        3    Q.  I notice number 39, Jim Hickman, who you testified used to

        4    stay at your house and you had professional interchange with

        5    him.  He received another version, another copy of the Criswell

        6    edition?

        7    A.  Well, the first time he received just the text.

        8    Q.  And now what did he get?

        9    A.  Now, he got the whole thing.

       10    Q.  David Hurt, do you remember him from Stanford research?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  If you look down to 41, what do we see?

       13    A.  Well, he sent a check for $100 and he bought two more.

       14    Q.  He received one of the yellow ones as well?

       15    A.  Yes.

       16    Q.  He has quite a few copies of the xerox manuscript, correct?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm moving as fast as I can, your

       19    Honor to 94.

       20    Q.  What do we see there?

       21    A.  94 is Reid Erickson.

       22    Q.  He is the fella down in Mexico?

       23    A.  That's right.

       24    Q.  And he had already received a copy of the xerox manuscript,

       25    right?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  And now he is receiving yet another one?

        3    A.  He is receiving two more.

        4    Q.  It says $100?

        5    A.  That's right.

        6    Q.  And I skipped one.  If you go back to 57, I see that Zelda

        7    Supree, who you have mentioned, she received as a gift it looks

        8    like with a straight line, a gift of the white version of the

        9    Criswell?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And she was someone who also knew Reid Erickson?

       12    A.  She was the president of this not for profit foundation.

       13    Q.  Now, it looks like either you ran out of numbers or the

       14    books ran out.  Well, it is somewhere of 94 of this run of the

       15    xerox manuscript run out.

       16    A.  To the best of my recollection, what happened there is that

       17    I had already ordered some more and they came, so we just put

       18    them away.  Some of them it's the reason we have them here

       19    (indicating).

       20    Q.  So you may not have received all 100 of that run?

       21    A.  94, it looks like I had.

       22    Q.  94, 95?

       23    A.  It looks like it, yes.

       24    Q.  How would you characterize the interest in the manuscript

       25    at this time?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Well, we had to run off another 100.  So I would say that

        2    the interest is high.

        3    Q.  What was your reaction to that?

        4    A.  I was thrilled, and I think also stunned.

        5    Q.  And so did Dr. Criswell run off yet another batch of 100 or

        6    so manuscripts?

        7    A.  Yes, she did.

        8    Q.  What color did we have this time?

        9    A.  Blue.

       10    Q.  And earlier I had used before -- the yellow ones arrived.

       11             Is this what I'm holding up a copy of the four volume

       12    set, a copy of the blue?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  Every one of them had a copyright notice affixed?

       15    A.  All four books.

       16    Q.  And every set no matter what color?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  I'm going to leave with the witness Exhibit 11, a

       19    three-page handwritten document on yellow paper.

       20             Would you be kind enough to identify Exhibit 11 for

       21    us?

       22    A.  It says at the top of this yellow lined paper Detroit

       23    people, blue edition.

       24    Q.  And the blue edition is now the third run of Criswell xerox

       25    manuscripts; is that correct?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

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