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        1    Q.  They told you what excerpts to, I'll say look at, but

        2    really listen to and evaluate; is that correct?

        3    A.  Yes, I was also asked to examine all of the tapes and all

        4    sections of them.

        5    Q.  Let's start with the ones that are the subject of Exhibit

        6    C, which are called, and I may get into this with the Court

        7    later, the ARE tapes.  Didn't something bear something that

        8    said Wagner College?

        9    A.  They didn't have labels on them.  They had numbers.

       10    Q.  But your second report deals with the four audio cassettes

       11    that you received, correct?

       12    A.  Yes, sir.

       13    Q.  And which had been referred to here as the ARE tapes?

       14    A.  Yes, sir.

       15    Q.  Now, in Mr. Fabian's discussion, he sort of lumped them all

       16    together, he said the ARE tapes reflect this?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  But there are actually four separate tapes?

       19    A.  Yes, sir.

       20    Q.  And you noted on your report, Exhibit C, some anomalies on

       21    each of the four tapes?

       22    A.  Correct.

       23    Q.  I would like to discuss that, but before I do, you were

       24    quite clear that the audio cassettes that you received were

       25    copies?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  Yes, sir.

        2    Q.  Now, is that an issue of any significance, an expert's

        3    attempt to authenticate a tape?

        4    A.  Absolutely.

        5    Q.  It's actually one of the critical factors, you would agree

        6    with me?

        7    A.  Absolutely.

        8    Q.  Are you familiar with a periodical by Bruce E. Koenig,

        9    Engineering Research Facility?

       10    A.  I believe I have read that.

       11    Q.  You would agree that Mr. Koenig is a recognized expert in

       12    the field of authentication of audio recordings?

       13    A.  Yes, sir.

       14    Q.  And you believe that you have reviewed the report.

       15             For ease of reference, why don't I ask that we mark

       16    the report.  I think D would be my recollection of the next

       17    letter.

       18             THE COURT:  But it's yours.

       19             MR. ROSENBERG:  We mark them differently?  Can we use

       20    numbers?

       21             THE COURT:  Yes, you have numbers.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  We'll mark it Exhibit 1, and you can

       23    have that, and there is a copy for the Court and a copy for

       24    Mr. Fabian.

       25             THE COURT:  Let me just ask you, let me ask counsel

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    just so I get it straight, Mazza was the expert who testified,

        2    but what is the genesis or where did the reel to reel tapes

        3    come from?  Did they also come from ARE?

        4             MR. FABIAN:  Mr. Mazza testified at the hearing, your

        5    Honor, that he had gotten a box from ARE.

        6             THE COURT:  They are ARE tapes.  They are just in a

        7    test form.

        8             MR. FABIAN:  They were in the original reel to reel

        9    form?

       10             THE COURT:  Basically they are all the same, I mean,

       11    in terms of where they came from, it is just that they are in a

       12    different form?

       13             MR. FABIAN:  Correct.  And Mr. Mazza testified, if I

       14    might for a moment, that, in fact, he had been given a number

       15    of tapes to work with by Mr. Todeschi.  As to the four ARE

       16    tapes, they were kept in the archive of ARE.

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  To be clear, not of the four that have

       18    been referred to as ARE tapes, which are the second batch, not

       19    the Mazza ARE tape.

       20             THE COURT:  The Mazza is the reel to reel?

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes, of the four ARE tapes, one of

       22    those is marked Wagner College, and Mr. Todeschi knew nothing

       23    of the recording of any of them and said that is not an ARE

       24    tape.

       25             MR. FABIAN:  He didn't say it wasn't an ARE tape, but

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    said he didn't know how it got into the library.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  Recorded elsewhere.  It was not

        3    recorded by ARE.  There is no suggestion that it was recorded

        4    by ARE, each with different issues.

        5             Shall I proceed?

        6             THE COURT:  Yes.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  I have put before the witness, the

        8    Court and Mr. Fabian Exhibit 1.

        9    Q.  Is this a copy of the article that I had earlier referred

       10    to?  I don't know if it has been put before you yet.

       11             Do you now have that in front of you, sir?

       12    A.  Yes.

       13    Q.  And that's the article that you said you believe you have

       14    read?

       15    A.  Yes, sir.

       16    Q.  And you concur that Mr. Koenig is a recognized expert?

       17    A.  Yes, I do.

       18    Q.  If you would be kind enough to refer to page 6 under the

       19    heading "Analysis Overview"; do you have that page?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  I'm going to read the second paragraph to you from

       22    Mr. Koenig from the FBI, "The first overall conversation in

       23    many examinations is whether the recording in question is an

       24    original or a duplicate, since copies cannot be authenticated."

       25             That's what Mr. Koenig wrote?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    A.  I agree.

        2    Q.  So you agree with Mr. Koenig's statement that copies cannot

        3    be authenticated?

        4    A.  Yes, sir.

        5    Q.  And if you'll turn to the next page, page 7 where he is

        6    talking about in the first full paragraph that begins with the

        7    words "once the examination and the evidence tape," et cetera;

        8    do you see where I am?

        9    A.  Yes, sir.

       10    Q.  About eight or nine lines down, Mr. Koenig says "The

       11    physical inspection identifies splices, tape damage, improper

       12    tape length, housing alterations and other visual defects."

       13             Did I read that correctly?

       14    A.  I believe so, yes.

       15    Q.  That can only be done to an original, correct?

       16    A.  Yes, sir.

       17    Q.  Would you agree that Mr. Koenig's statement that only an

       18    original tape recording can be authenticated?

       19    A.  Yes, but I was not asked to authenticate the tapes.

       20    Q.  You predicted my next question.

       21             Did the defendants ask you to authenticate the

       22    original tapes?

       23    A.  The original Mazza tape, yes.

       24    Q.  We'll get to that in a minute.

       25             These four ARE tapes, were you asked to look at the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    originals?

        2    A.  No.

        3    Q.  Did you tell Mr. Fabian or the defendants that you can't

        4    authenticate a copy?

        5    A.  Yes, I did.

        6    Q.  And what did they respond?

        7    A.  They advised me that the original copies were either

        8    unavailable or there was a time problem getting me down there

        9    or the tapes up here.

       10    Q.  And, again, I'm not being the least bit critical.  Were any

       11    efforts made to get you the original tapes by having you go to

       12    ARE or having a tape sent to you?

       13    A.  I don't know.

       14    Q.  And do you agree then that you are not in a position, and

       15    I'm not being critical, to authenticate any of the four

       16    audiotapes?

       17    A.  I was not asked to authenticate.  I was asked to listen to,

       18    examine and give an opinion as to the flow and continuity of

       19    information and look for indicators of tampering.

       20    Q.  The four tapes that you were asked to look at were excerpts

       21    by defendants?

       22    A.  No, I was asked to cover the whole tapes but in particular

       23    the excerpts.

       24    Q.  But you were not asked to authenticate the originals?

       25    A.  No.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    Q.  And you can't authenticate a copy?

        2    A.  True.

        3             MR. ROSENBERG:  I have much more, but I think that

        4    alone is enough, if the Court feels sufficient to rule.

        5             No effort was made to get the originals.

        6             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, if I might, authentication is

        7    a legal term.

        8             THE COURT:  The basic problem here, even assuming that

        9    the excerpts are integral, and making that assumption, which

       10    for the reasons you have just indicated may be a little shakey,

       11    the basic problem we have, of course, is that we don't know

       12    that the entire proceeding, whatever that proceeding was.  And

       13    we don't know how it was taped, by whom.  That's our problem.

       14             MR. FABIAN:  That's true, your Honor, but that

       15    analysis is not indicative of the fact that tapes should not be

       16    permitted in evidence.  That would go to the weight of the

       17    evidence, your Honor.  As your Honor has stated in your

       18    decisions, the chain of custody is not in dispute.  You may not

       19    have accepted --

       20             THE COURT:  I think what I said was it's kind of

       21    spongy.  Spongy is a technical legal term.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  From the Latin, I believe.

       23             THE COURT:  Basically what I said was, well, there are

       24    problems of the chain of custody.  There is no chain of

       25    custody.  There isn't any.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1             MR. FABIAN:  These are, in fact, tapes, even though

        2    you don't accept them as the Ancient Doctrine.  The Court is

        3    entitled to take into consideration that they are 20 years or

        4    so old, and there would have been no reason for anybody to

        5    tamper with them when delivered to the archive.

        6             THE COURT:  Maybe we can save everybody -- how many --

        7    how long, oh, Lord, how long if we listen to these tapes?  How

        8    long does it take?

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  The whole tapes take hours and hours.

       10    To respond to this, they could have looked at the originals.

       11             THE COURT:  I don't know whether they could or they

       12    couldn't.

       13             MR. ROSENBERG:  They have a duty to authenticate the

       14    tapes.  This is the third time you have given them a chance.

       15    Can I give an example that may clarify why this is problematic?

       16             THE COURT:  Sure.

       17    Q.  If you look at Exhibit C and turn to number four on your

       18    report, KT9A, that was one of the cassettes; is that correct?

       19             Page 4 of Exhibit C, which is your second report --

       20    A.  I don't have that before me.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Mr. Fabian, did you proffer it to the

       22    Court?

       23             MR. FABIAN:  I thought that I did.  Maybe the judge

       24    has it.  If not, I can give you another copy.

       25             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes, just so the witness has it.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1             May I approach, your Honor?

        2             THE COURT:  Sure.

        3    Q.  If you turn, sir, to page 4, paragraph numbered four of

        4    that report.

        5    A.  Yes, sir.

        6    Q.  And this is under a section that you called "anomolies,"

        7    correct?

        8    A.  Yes, sir.

        9    Q.  And this is a conclusion or observations?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  With one of the four cassettes that you received?

       12    A.  Yes, sir.

       13    Q.  And you wrote the following:  "Poor recording quality."

       14             Did you write that?

       15    A.  Yes, I did.

       16    Q.  Let me ask you this:  If you have an original tape and then

       17    a copy is made of that and a copy is made of the copy, in nine

       18    generations later you get a copy that's going to be in

       19    different quality than the original, correct?

       20    A.  Absolutely.

       21    Q.  And certain things that you might hear on the original will

       22    not be present on the ninth generation?

       23    A.  That's true.

       24    Q.  Certain anomalies that you would hear on the original or

       25    even a first generation won't be present in the fifth or eighth

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    or ninth?

        2    A.  That's true.

        3    Q.  There is a dimmunution, if you will, of the recording?

        4    A.  Sure.  You lose a generation on each copy.

        5    Q.  What generation were the copies that you received from the

        6    original?

        7    A.  As close as I could determine, they were second generation.

        8    Q.  Do you know that?

        9    A.  From spectral examination, yes, I could draw that

       10    conclusion.

       11    Q.  Could they have been third generation?

       12    A.  No.

       13    Q.  No chance of that?

       14    A.  No chance is -- nothing is perfect.

       15    Q.  But you would agree that even as a second generation there

       16    are things that you won't be able to detect on it that you

       17    could detect on the original?

       18    A.  Absolutely.

       19    Q.  Even on the non-original tape, you wrote "poor recording

       20    quality"; is that correct?

       21    A.  Yes.

       22    Q.  You wrote "low volume and distortion"; is that correct?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  And then you wrote "005 break".  005 refers to the counter

       25    numbers where you can look on a tape recorder and see where you

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    are?

        2    A.  Yes, sir.

        3    Q.  You say there was a break in the tape at 005?

        4    A.  I mean a break in continuity.

        5    Q.  As early as 005?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  Right at the beginning of the tape?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  0072 is somewhere a way in the tape there is a drop out.

       10    What does that mean?

       11    A.  That is a situation that occurs when you either have dust

       12    on the heads, the tape is moved away a little bit and it sounds

       13    like it is fading in and out.

       14    Q.  You have a drop out at 607, 693; 1095 you have an alignment

       15    problem causing reverse play back of adjacent track.  That is

       16    when the other side of the tape is playing over the moving part

       17    of the tape?

       18    A.  The upper portion moves past the guides.

       19    Q.  At the same time?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  Other than the Beetles using it on Let It Be as an effect,

       22    that's very difficult to hear what's being said?

       23    A.  Absolutely.

       24    Q.  It's going in two directions?

       25    A.  You're actually listening to one side in the wrong

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    direction.

        2    Q.  At that moment on the tape?

        3    A.  At that moment, and the same on the reverse as you would

        4    expect.

        5    Q.  As it flips the process around?

        6    A.  Exactly.

        7    Q.  On side B of this tape at 004 we have a stop and a start,

        8    correct?

        9    A.  Yes, sir.

       10    Q.  What was said when the tape recorder was stopped?  What did

       11    you speaker say?

       12    A.  I don't think the speaker was talking at that time.

       13    Q.  Do you know if there were any words that weren't said?

       14    A.  I believe this is when the recorder was started and they

       15    stopped it and then started it.  And a few minutes later the

       16    lecturer actually --

       17    Q.  Do you know that?  Do you know that, sir?

       18    A.  I'm going from what I hear.

       19    Q.  When the tape recorders stop?

       20    A.  I can't no what happened during that stop, of course.

       21    Q.  Was it stopped for five seconds?

       22    A.  I don't know that.

       23    Q.  Was it stopped for five minutes?

       24    A.  I don't know that.

       25    Q.  Was it stopped for 30 minutes?

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        1    A.  I don't know that.

        2    Q.  Was it stopped for an hour?

        3    A.  I don't know.

        4    Q.  What happened during the hour or 30 minutes or five minutes

        5    or one minute that it was stopped?

        6    A.  I can't determine that, sir.

        7    Q.  Then you have at 37 reverse play reflected from side A.

        8    That's the same thing going in both directions?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  Drop out in speed variations at 44; is that correct?

       11    A.  Yes.

       12    Q.  78, drop out.  361, severe drop out during question and

       13    answer session; is that correct?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  There is a question and answer session on this, isn't

       16    there?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  During a portion of it there is what you characterize as a

       19    severe drop out, correct?

       20    A.  Yes, I would call it like a pause as opposed to a full stop

       21    start.

       22    Q.  And do you know what happened during that pause as a

       23    literal matter?

       24    A.  I do not.

       25    Q.  Do you know what question might have been missed on the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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        1    tape during that time?

        2    A.  I do not.

        3    Q.  Do you know what answer might have been missed on the tape

        4    during that time?

        5    A.  No.

        6    Q.  There is no way to determine?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  You told the defendants that you needed the originals to

        9    properly authenticate the tapes; is that right?

       10    A.  Yes, I did.

       11    Q.  They did not give you the originals; is that right?

       12    A.  Yes.

       13    Q.  You were asked to listen maybe a 30 second snippet,

       14    correct?

       15    A.  In the excerpts, yes.

       16    Q.  It sounded like the words started in one place and stopped

       17    in another place?

       18    A.  Correct.

       19    Q.  You don't know anything else about it, do you, other than

       20    just that snippet?

       21    A.  I know there are sections that were uninterrupted by these

       22    anomalies that I would find suspicion were intact.

       23    Q.  There are sections that you would find suspicious, that was

       24    your word?

       25    A.  Sure.  Anomalies are suspicion.  When you don't have the

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    original, it's difficult to know what caused the anomalies.

        2    Q.  Who made the original tape recording?

        3    A.  I have no idea.

        4    Q.  What type of tape recording equipment was used?

        5    A.  I would assume a reel to reel.

        6    Q.  A Testscan, a Marrantz?

        7    A.  I would venture a guess.

        8    Q.  Do you know?

        9    A.  No.

       10    Q.  Do you know whether the operator of the tape recorder who

       11    made the original was competent to operate the recording

       12    device?

       13    A.  I do not know.

       14    Q.  You have already said the third characteristic that we're

       15    dealing with --

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, this is from your opinion.

       17    Q.  -- is that the recording is authentic and correct.  You

       18    have testified quite candidly that you can't authenticate a

       19    copy?

       20    A.  That's correct.

       21    Q.  The changes or deletions have not been made to the

       22    recording, you don't know as an imperial fact whether any

       23    changes were made from the original to the copy you received?

       24    A.  I do not.

       25    Q.  You don't know who made the copy, do you?

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  No, I don't.

        2    Q.  That the recording has been preserved in the manner that it

        3    has been presented to the Court -- well, in fact, what's being

        4    presented to the Court is a copy, not the original?

        5    A.  True.

        6    Q.  Do you have any firsthand knowledge in what manner the

        7    recordings were preserved in, the originals?

        8    A.  I do not.

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, that's my examination on

       10    those four tapes.  Should I move on now to the Mazza tapes?

       11             THE COURT:  Sure.

       12    Q.  Now, earlier, I believe last year, perhaps in October, you

       13    were asked to look at a reel to reel?

       14    A.  Yes, sir.

       15    Q.  Now, all reel to reels, that doesn't mean they are

       16    original, do they?

       17    A.  Until examined you can't determine that.

       18    Q.  Right, because I can take a reel to reel and if I have

       19    another reel to reel recorder, I can copy the reel to reel on

       20    to another reel to reel?

       21    A.  Absolutely.

       22    Q.  And let me ask you, did you do tests to determine whether

       23    what's called the Mazza tape was an original?

       24    A.  Yes, I did.

       25    Q.  What is your conclusion?

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  My conclusion was that the tape was an original.

        2    Q.  Now, again, the assignment that you received, and I'm going

        3    to read from Exhibit B, is an expert opinion with respect to

        4    pertinent excerpts related to the issues in this case.  That

        5    was your assignment, correct?

        6    A.  Yes, sir.

        7    Q.  I want to ask you about the tape as a whole.

        8             Well, let me ask you, I noticed in your report,

        9    Exhibit B, that you were given, I believe, a Court transcript

       10    of Mr. Mazza's testimony.  Did you read that?

       11    A.  Yes, I did.

       12    Q.  Did you use that at least for informational purposes to

       13    understand what you were looking at?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  Did you read that transcript prior to testifying just to

       16    refresh your memory?

       17    A.  No, I haven't read it in a while.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm going to read from the transcript.

       19    Larry, do you have a copy, so you can follow along?  I don't

       20    have an additional copy.

       21             I'm reading now from page 31 of Mr. Mazza's

       22    transcript.

       23    "Q.  Did you run any tests to determine whether the tape

       24    recorder that recorded Exhibit A had been stopped and started

       25    and stopped and started during the recording process?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

                                                                           38

             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    "A. it has been stopped and started from what I could tell of

        2    this tape.

        3             He then talks about biased leakage, and I ask him at

        4    page 32 line 21:

        5    "Q. Is it fair for me to assume that there are parts of the

        6    tape that are not coherent?

        7    "A. there are parts where it is broken because you can hear the

        8    tape recorder stopping, and you can hear the tape recorder

        9    picking up again.

       10             And he discussed the characteristics that allowed him

       11    to identify this.  I said on page 33:

       12    "Q.  And you heard on Exhibit A that type of sound which

       13    indicates to you, as someone with many years of experience in

       14    this field, that the tape recorder at some point had been

       15    stopped and at some point started?

       16    "A.  That is correct.

       17    "Q.  And that was on a number of occasions?

       18    "A. that  was on several occasions on this tape.

       19             I also asked Mr. Mazza -- bear with me one moment

       20    while I find the page.  28, line 10.

       21    "Q.  From your own personal knowledge, was that tape --

       22    Q.  And Mr. Mazza was talking about the same reel to reel that

       23    you looked at; is that right?

       24    A.  I believe so, yes.

       25    "Q.  Was that tape edited in any way prior to it being sent to

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                                      (212) 805-0300


 

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    you?

        2    "A.  I can't tell you that.  It could have been edited for

        3    the -- parts could have been taken out of it or put into it.

        4             Then he says:

        5    "A.   But from what I heard on the tape, it would be unlikely

        6    that it had been edited to change the content.

        7             And I went on to say, I talked to him about parts,

        8    could have been spliced out and things could have been left off

        9    when it stopped and started, and he concurred that that was

       10    true.

       11             So refreshing your recollection as to what Mr. Mazza

       12    said, I noticed on Exhibit B unlike Exhibit C, you don't have a

       13    section called anomolies, do you?

       14    A.  No, I do not.

       15    Q.  But on Exhibit C you do?

       16    A.  Yes, I do.

       17    Q.  There were anomolies on the so-called Mazza tapes?

       18    A.  Oh, absolutely.

       19    Q.  The tape was stopped and started in a number of places,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  Yes, sir, absolutely.

       22    Q.  I'm going to ask you a question so the record is clear.  On

       23    the number of occasions on which the Mazza tape was stopped,

       24    what was said?

       25    A.  I don't know.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300


 

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  Is there any way anyone can know?

        2    A.  No.

        3    Q.  Do you know what kind of tape recorder was used to make the

        4    original of what we call the Mazza tapes?

        5    A.  No.

        6    Q.  Do you know the identity of the operator of the recording

        7    device?

        8    A.  No, sir.

        9    Q.  Now, I asked Mr. Mazza whether the operator was competent.

       10    He testified he doubted it.  Would you concur with that?

       11    A.  I see errors that were performed.  That wasn't very

       12    professional.

       13    Q.  We have discussed whether changes, additions or deletions

       14    have been made.  There is no way, as I say, for you to testify

       15    what happened when the tape recorder was stopped and started,

       16    is there?

       17    A.  True.

       18    Q.  And, again, your report didn't mention any of these

       19    anomalies, did it?

       20    A.  It did not.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, can I have one moment to

       22    consult my expert to see what I have forgotten something,

       23    because I always forget something?

       24             (Pause)

       25    Q.  Did you, sir, do a magnetic development test on the Mazza

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                                      (212) 805-0300

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