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35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Yes, she was. 2 Q. And William Thetford? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Ken Wapnick? 5 A. Yes, he was. 6 Q. And did you give, to the best of your knowledge, all of the 7 manuscript to anyone at that meeting? 8 A. You're talking about the entire manuscript? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No, I cannot. 11 Q. Did you give any to Russel Tarring? 12 A. Russel Tarring wasn't interested in this, and I gave him 13 nothing. 14 Q. He did not ask and you gave him nothing? 15 A. He was interested in the phenomenon and not the material. 16 Q. How about David Hurt, who was vouched for by Russel 17 Tarring, did he request some of the material? 18 A. He didn't request it of me. I was sort of an addendum to 19 that group. He was interested in the experience from 20 Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford. 21 Q. Did he request the materials? 22 A. He did request a piece of the material, yes. 23 Q. Was, to your recollection, any given to him? 24 A. I remember a small portion was given to him for his 25 perusal, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
141 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. If you had to estimate how many were given to him, what 2 would your estimate be? 3 A. I don't remember whether it was a portion of the workbook 4 or the teacher's manual or the text, but I would say it was 5 about maybe this high (indicating) 6 Q. You're indicating again maybe a third of an inch? 7 A. About, yeah. 8 Q. And what was the purpose from your understanding of this 9 meeting that this very small portion of the 8 by 12 was being 10 given to David Hurt? 11 A. You mean the eight and a half by 11 material? 12 Q. Yeah, the small section. 13 A. Well, he was prevailing upon Helen to be able to see it and 14 to take it home, and since she met with him face to face and 15 Russel Tarring had introduced them and she figured that he was 16 okay, I cannot tell you whether I handed it to him or Helen 17 did. 18 Q. You're quite sure it was a very small portion? 19 A. Yes, that I'm sure of. 20 Q. From your own personal observation, listening and what have 21 you, was David Hurt authorized to make copies of that? 22 A. Oh, no. 23 Q. What other professional activities related to -- I'm sorry, 24 did you or did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford give copies of the 25 manuscript to anyone else at the Stanford Research Institute? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
142 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. During the entire month long trip, give or take, in 3 California, did you give a copy of the manuscript, the eight 4 and a half by 11 or part of it to anybody? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. To your observation, did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford give 7 any part of it to anyone? 8 A. To my observation, no, absolutely not. 9 Q. Late July, August, what's happening with Dr. Criswell at 10 this point in time? 11 A. She was busy with the paste up. She was doing the work on 12 that. She reported that that was coming along and a couple of 13 times I helped her. 14 Q. You actually saw what was going on? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Where did that take place? 17 A. I think she lived in Navato at the time, which was very 18 close. 19 Q. I don't know if us east coast guys know. 20 A. It's about 40 minutes north of San Francisco and on the way 21 to where she worked in Sonoma State University. 22 Q. What did you observe about the copied eight and a half by 23 11 that you had left with Dr. Criswell? 24 A. That she was working very hard on it. 25 Q. Physically what did you see? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
143 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. She had to mount the pages for being able to photocopy them 2 so they can make xeroxing reduced size. 3 Q. Did you assist in that process? 4 A. Somewhat. 5 Q. Who did most of the work? 6 A. She did. 7 Q. And when did Drs. Wapnick, Thetford and Schucman, Louis 8 Schucman on this, what I'll call group trip, leave? 9 A. Since their lease was a month long, the best I can place it 10 was August 22nd. I didn't extend the lease and that was their 11 stay. 12 Q. Did you return with them to New York? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. Why not? 15 A. Well, I was waiting for the manuscript to be finished. 16 Q. And by the manuscript, that's interesting, what do you mean 17 by that? 18 A. Well, Eleanor was working on this. She was coming along 19 quite well and she was taking it to Kopy Kat in Berkeley. And 20 I didn't want to wait, go back to New York, come back again or 21 I didn't want the mail. I was too excited to see them, so I 22 stayed on. 23 Q. Did there come a time when the manuscript, as you just 24 described it, was xeroxed in this form? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
144 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Now, you have testified that the group left around August 2 22nd. Can you place the date? 3 A. I can't place it exactly, no. It would be towards the end 4 of August. I would be guessing if I said 27th, 28th, 29th. It 5 was certainly before Labor Day. 6 Q. Why do you say it was before Labor Day? 7 A. I was teaching at New York University, and I was due back 8 for the fall term and I had to prepare. There were other 9 personal reasons. 10 Q. Were you back in New York by Labor Day? 11 A. I think I was back. Actually, the day before is my 12 mother's birthday. 13 Q. And so between that and your NYU teaching, you know you 14 returned to New York by Labor Day 1975? 15 A. Oh, yes. 16 Q. Did you have anything with you? 17 A. I did. I had many copies of the reduced size manuscript. 18 I left some in California. I had given some out with a great 19 deal of excitement to certain friends. Gerald Jampolsky took 20 some. 21 Q. I actually jumped ahead. Tell the Court about the day if 22 you remember when you actually picked up the reduced xerox 23 manuscripts. 24 A. We went, Gerry Jampolsky and I went in his Mustang 25 convertible to Berkeley and we met Eleanor Criswell at the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
145 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 place called Kopy Kat, K-O-P-Y K-A-T, where it was a plain 2 copy center. No one was there at the time. There wasn't 3 people milling around. There was a person greeting us when we 4 stood at the front counter. Dr. Criswell was inside and she 5 was actually paying for them, and I couldn't wait. They 6 brought out one copy because I wanted to hold it in my hand. 7 And Dr. Jampolsky had a bottle of chilled champagne and a few 8 glasses. There was a lot of pressure in the bottle, and maybe 9 got somewhat warmer during the ride, and the cork crashed right 10 through the drop ceiling and broke a panel, a plastic panel. 11 And we looked up at the hole and we thought it was a very 12 perpiscious beginning, but we didn't want anyone to see it. 13 Q. Did you receive copies of the manuscript that day? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. ROSENBERG: Ultimately, because there is a little 16 confusion, apparently copying, your Honor, hasn't improved much 17 we have a copy that we're going to introduce as an exhibit, but 18 I'm going to use one of the actual books now. 19 Q. The first set of these, Criswell set of the manuscripts, 20 what color was the cover? 21 A. Yellow. 22 Q. The second set, what color was it? 23 A. White. 24 Q. That was sometime later? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
146 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. And then the third one? 2 A. Blue. 3 MR. ROSENBERG: We're told the yellow one is being 4 returned. It is at a copy center. We're going to use one of 5 the blue ones, and when the yellow one gets here, we'll 6 substitute. 7 MR. FABIAN: We don't think it's necessary to 8 substitute. It's my understanding the cover is just different. 9 (Pause) 10 MR. ROSENBERG: For now, I'm going to mark this 11 volume, which happens to say Volume 2 for text in A Course in 12 Miracles as 6. 13 For convenience sake, I'll substitute it and explain 14 so everyone can have a copy. 15 Q. I'm going to approach the witness and ask if you can 16 identify what this volume is? 17 A. It's the first of a series. Sorry, it's the second of a 18 series of four volumes that comprised the course of the 19 manuscript, A Course in Miracles, reduced in size. 20 Q. Would you turn to the first or second page. Is there 21 anything mentioned about copyright? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Please read into the record what it says? 24 A. "Copyright -- with a small C and a circle -- 1975 by The 25 Foundation for Parasensory Investigation. All rights SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
147 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 reserved -- underlined -- printed in the United States of 2 America. First published in 1975 by Free Person Press, 325 3 Ninth Street, San Francisco, California 94103." 4 Q. With the exception of the fact that this exhibit happens to 5 have a blue cover, is this actually one of the actual copies? 6 I don't mean a duplicate, but one of the ones that Eleanor 7 Criswell happened to have copied? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This was one of the third batch? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Would you open to any given page -- will you open to any 12 page at random. Maybe there will be some mystical significance 13 to that; what page are you on? 14 A. 500. 15 Q. Here is 499 and 500. I'll show the Court. 16 If we were to look in those notebooks of 499, is it 17 exactly the same? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. It is actually just a reduced page. 20 A. It's running off these copies on a xerox machine reduced in 21 size. 22 Q. If I were to look in that pile of thesis binders for page 23 500, it would be precisely the same exact page as appears here? 24 A. Yes, it would. 25 Q. And these were produced by xerox, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
148 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And ultimately were hundreds and hundreds of xerox copies 3 run off? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Over 300? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And every one of them had a copyright notice inside? 8 A. Every one of them. 9 Q. So you now have -- what was the first run of the yellow 10 covered one -- how many volumes was the 1500 pages reduced to? 11 A. Four. 12 Q. How many for the text? 13 A. Two. 14 Q. How many for the teacher's manual? 15 A. One thin one. 16 Q. And how many, and I'll just hold up the teacher's manual, 17 I'm holding up another blue covered one, teacher's manual? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And how many for the workbook? 20 A. One. 21 Q. Total of four volumes all in the first printing with yellow 22 covers? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. They are, in fact, the manuscript? 25 A. Yes, they are. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
149 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. How many did you pick up approximately this first run down 2 of Kopy Kat in Berkeley? 3 A. We had actually ordered a hundred, but I think that first 4 bunch they did an overrun for us because you never know what's 5 going to happen. I don't remember the exact number, but it was 6 more than a hundred. 7 Q. What did you do after the champagne cork damaged the 8 ceiling of Kopy Kat? What did you do with the hundred? You 9 picked up all hundred or more sets? 10 A. Yes, in cartons. 11 Q. What did you do with it? 12 A. We went back to Gerry's house and started calling people 13 and telling them they were ready. 14 Q. Pretty excited? 15 A. More than. 16 Q. Pretty enthusiastic? 17 A. Very. 18 Q. Higher demand than you expected? 19 A. We had no expectations of demand. We knew the people who 20 knew about it wanted copies. 21 Q. Did they want them? 22 A. Oh, did they. 23 Q. What did you begin to do with the copyrighted manuscript 24 reduced and xeroxed? 25 A. We started to distribute it to the people who wanted it and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
150 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 were waiting for it. 2 Q. What time period are we in now? 3 A. This first time period for the yellow manuscript was when I 4 got the books, which I'm not sure of that date, and that is 5 probably say August 26th or 7th. 6 Q. And you started passing them out right after that in 7 California? 8 A. Oh, yeah. 9 Q. And, again, this case had been going on many years, this 10 litigation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. There has been a lot of discovery? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you find some documents in the piles of documents that 15 you had that shed some light on not only the timing but the 16 recipients of the yellow xerox manuscript? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And what did you find? 19 A. I found some sheets, legal size paper from a pad that I had 20 written on and kept the record of the various people we either 21 sold the copy to or gave to as a gift. 22 MR. ROSENBERG: I'm going to ask the Court's 23 indulgence -- 24 Here is a copy being placed in front of Mr. Fabian and 25 an additional copy for the Court. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
151 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 I move first into evidence Exhibit 6, your Honor, the 2 Criswell manuscript. 3 THE COURT: It's admitted. 4 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 received in evidence) 5 MR. ROSENBERG: Just for the record, because it is not 6 stapled, Exhibit 7 is on yellow sheets, and it is a four-page 7 document. I'm going to present it to the witness. While I'm 8 doing that, I understand our copies of the Criswell edition 9 have arrived. 10 Q. If you take a look at this, Ms. Skutch Whitson, and just 11 hold the thought for a second. 12 (Pause) 13 MR. ROSENBERG: Your Honor, for a little housekeeping, 14 and I apologize for the slight delay, the yellow versions have 15 arrived and I have four volumes in my hand that I'll place 16 before the witness. 17 Q. Do you recognize these four volumes that have yellow 18 covers, which I'm now going to have marked as Exhibit 6 in 19 place of the blue one? 20 A. Yes, I do. Those are the first copies of the manuscript in 21 the reduced form bound in yellow covers. 22 MR. ROSENBERG: And what I would like to do, your 23 Honor, for consistency is I'm going to take the first 25 pages 24 of the xeroxed copy of that to be sort of coincident of the 25 first 25 pages of the original manuscript. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
152 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 MR. FABIAN: Your Honor, could this be a moment for a 2 brief break, if I might have a moment to head to the men's 3 room? 4 MR. ROSENBERG: Since I may require a similar courtesy 5 later, I won't object. 6 THE COURT: You may leave if you want to, you have 7 help. 8 MR. ROSENBERG: I'm going to mark it 6A an excerpt of 9 Exhibit 6, which is the first 25 pages. It's really, your 10 Honor, so it will be manageable for the Court. 11 Q. I would like to put before you Exhibit 6A and Exhibit 4, 12 which you'll remember is the first 25 pages from the eight and 13 a half by 11. 14 MR. FABIAN: What is 6A? 15 MR. ROSENBERG: 6A is -- 6 is the yellow four volume 16 set. 6A is the first 25 pages from the first volume of Exhibit 17 6 just for manageability. 18 Q. And I'm going to ask you to take Exhibit 4 and turn to page 19 13. And then I'm going to ask you to take 6A and turn to 13. 20 How does Exhibit 4 begin? What's at the top of the page? 21 A. The number 13, and under that, wholeness and spirit 22 underlined. 23 Q. And then it begins with the words "the Miracle"? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And ends with the word "the" at the end of the page? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
153 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. I'm going to place before you the two exhibits, and you can 3 see in every respect they are identical because Exhibit 6 is 4 simply a xerox of Exhibit 4; is that correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 MR. FABIAN: I don't see that in my versions. Can you 7 tell me what you're doing? 8 Q. Now, I put before you Exhibit 7. Would you please identify 9 that, Ms. Skutch Whitson? 10 A. Yes, these four pages are the records of my distribution of 11 the manuscript in the small form, the reduced size manuscript 12 in the yellow cover. And then there are two pages of that 13 going up to page number 78. 14 MR. ROSENBERG: There are five pages which start with 15 the number 1 and end with the number 126. 16 Q. Is this your handwriting? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 MR. ROSENBERG: I would move for the admission of 19 Exhibit 7. Did we give one to the Court? 20 With the Court's indulgence, I just need to get my 21 copy of this list. 22 Q. Now, would you explain -- it says yellow book at the top of 23 Exhibit 7. I think that's self-explanatory. That refers to 24 Criswell 6 manuscript? 25 A. This, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
154 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. This is all your handwriting? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. And then it says who has the course in Miracles. When did 4 you prepare this? 5 A. As soon as I started to disseminate them, which probably 6 means that night or the next day. 7 Q. I'm not going to go through all of the 125 people. 8 A. Eleanor Criswell -- 9 Q. When did you give Ms. Criswell the copyrighted manuscript? 10 A. She got the first one right from at Berkeley, Kopy Kat. 11 Q. Now, can you tell from this list kind of where you were at 12 any given time? Ms. Criswell was located where? 13 A. San Francisco working. 14 Q. And are all of the people at the beginning of this list 15 from San Francisco or California? 16 A. Yes, they are. 17 Q. To about what number? 18 A. I would say number 22, which is kind of questionable 19 because they are in both places. 20 Q. And I see 23 says Sausalito? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And 24 says Wilbur Flynn, Kent State? 23 A. That's crossed out. Not on 24. 24 Q. What do you have for number 24? 25 A. Wilbur Flynn, Kent Sate. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
155 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Right. I see there is a thin pencil line that doesn't show 2 up on the copy. 3 Kent State is in Ohio? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. So the first 23 or so people were in California? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When did you give a copy of the xeroxed copyright 8 manuscript to those 22 or 23 people? 9 A. After that. 10 Q. But before you came back to New York, before Labor Day? 11 A. Yes, I think. 12 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that? 13 A. Well, the reason I'm not so sure whether I was actually 14 there giving these out or not is because I have the addresses 15 down on this list. Most of these places I put people's 16 addresses, I mailed them. 17 Q. When you were in California, you gave it to Eleanor 18 Criswell, correct? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And then I see, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, Jim Bolen? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Did you give him copies of the xeroxed manuscript when you 23 were in California at this time? 24 A. The reduced size? 25 Q. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
156 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. I'm talking about the yellow Criswell edition. 3 A. I gave him five copies. 4 Q. Remember David Hurt that you met a week or so earlier? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did he get a copy of the copyrighted? 7 A. He got two. 8 Q. During late August 1975? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I notice the name Jim Hickman, number 8, who is 11 Mr. Hickman? 12 A. Jim Hickman was a young friend of ours who actually I call 13 him a protege of Dr. Stanley Criptner, who was a professional 14 associate. And he was sponsored for one trip to Russia to 15 investigate one of their devices by our foundation. 16 Q. So you had a professional relationship with Mr. Hickman? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you have any recollection of whether before August he 19 got a copy that says here of volume one of the text? Do have 20 any recollection of whether you had ever given him any pages of 21 the 8 by 11 manuscript? 22 A. Well, Jim Hickman was in and out of our house. He lived in 23 California and he traveled a lot, and I do know that when he 24 was in New York staying with us, that I showed him a document, 25 told him the story and he met Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
157 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 And I cannot tell you how many pages I gave him, but I don't 2 believe it was more than a portion of the text because it was 3 heavy. And later on he said he wanted the text. 4 Q. You didn't give him the whole course? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever give him permission to copy it? 7 A. No. 8 Q. He would stay in your house for professional reasons, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And by August you had given him a copy of what we call the 12 copyrighted reduced xerox, right? 13 A. I noticed that on this list he is number eight. I have the 14 list marked with check marks for people who paid and -- this is 15 for people who either couldn't afford to or it was going to be 16 a gift. 17 Q. To move through this quickly because there are three runs 18 of this xerox. Can you tell from this list where it is that 19 you're back in New York? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Where is that? 22 A. Number 36. 23 Q. 36 on the second page of Exhibit 7 is -- I can't make it 24 out. Can you read that? 25 A. It says Maria Janus. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
158 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Who is that? 2 A. She was a friend interested in the course and metaphysical 3 things. She was known as a healer in New York City besides 4 being a celebrated artist. She was the wife of Byron Janus the 5 concert pianist, and she was the daughter of Gary Cooper. 6 Q. Had you ever given her a copy of the 8 by 11? 7 A. No, definitely not. 8 Q. And now I see Helen Schucman, Bill Thetford? 9 A. Bill Thetford actually has two. 10 Q. There is an individual named Joseph Janus. Did you know 11 Mr. Janus? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. Strictly limiting it to New York, when did you meet with 14 Mr. Janus? 15 A. I believe I met him '72 or 3. I'm not sure of the year. 16 Q. When was the first time that Mr. Janus, to your knowledge, 17 learned about A Course in Miracles? 18 A. He came to our house in the late summer 1975 to consult my 19 then husband, Bob Skutch, about a medical condition that the 20 doctors weren't able to help him with. It was an allergy. 21 Q. Bob Skutch is not a doctor? 22 A. Yes, he is. He did meditative and spiritual healing. 23 THE COURT: We will have some of that healing right 24 now. 25 THE DEPUTY CLERK: All rise. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
159 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 (Recess) 2 THE DEPUTY CLERK: All rise. 3 THE COURT: Please be seated. 4 MR. ROSENBERG: Proceed, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 6 Q. You know you have told in some detail the story of 7 Dr. Criswell making these xeroxes of the manuscript when you 8 picked them up, and I'm going to ask you again, how sure are 9 you of the date? 10 A. I can't be positive since I didn't -- I don't have diaries 11 or anything from that time, but I could say I'm virtually 12 positive. 13 Q. Let me ask in another way. How certain are you it was in 14 August of 1975? 15 A. Very positive. 16 Q. You're certain of that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When you came back to New York after Labor Day, when you 19 met Joe Janus you had Exhibit 6 with you? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. No question about that? 22 A. No question about that. 23 Q. I'm going to put in front of you what we have marked as 24 Exhibit 8, which was an affidavit that was filed some time ago 25 in connection with prior summary judgment proceedings. And do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 |
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