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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  I told him in the story they do not want the scene copied,

        2    shown about and they don't want it connected to them.

        3    Q.  What was Dr. Mitchell's reaction to the course at that

        4    meeting?

        5    A.  He was pleasant.  He always is.  But I felt he wasn't too

        6    much interested.  He said that he would try to take a look at

        7    it.

        8    Q.  Did you ever hear back from him at this time, 1975, about

        9    his reaction to the course?

       10    A.  Not that I can remember, although I did see him

       11    subsequently, but I can't remember talking to him about it

       12    again.

       13    Q.  Do you have any information based on your observation,

       14    anyone you talked to?  Did Dr. Mitchell ever make any copies of

       15    any pages you had ever given him?

       16    A.  He never told me he made any copies of that manuscript, no.

       17    Q.  Do you have any belief that he did?

       18    A.  I don't have any belief that he did.

       19    Q.  You are aware that Dr. Mitchell's deposition was taken in

       20    this case?

       21    A.  Yes, I am.

       22    Q.  And we'll have a chance to look at his testimony.

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  So I want to kind to make clear that I understand that as

       25    of early July, Gerald Jampolsky had a copy?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  That's Dr. Jampolsky, correct?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  James Bolen the publisher had a copy?

        5    A.  That's correct.

        6    Q.  And Edgar Mitchell may have had a half an inch, 50 pages?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  To your recollection, as of that time, had you given a copy

        9    of the entire course to anyone else?

       10    A.  No.

       11    Q.  As of that time, late June, early July, to your memory, had

       12    you given a copy of any portions to any other individuals other

       13    than whom you have described?

       14    A.  No.

       15    Q.  And copyrighting the course had already been discussed as

       16    of this date, correct?

       17    A.  As of July when I went back, yes, it had been.

       18    Q.  Now, you mentioned you had two copies when you went back

       19    why was that?

       20    A.  I knew I was going to bring one to Eleanor Criswell and I

       21    needed one for me.

       22    Q.  What purpose were you going to bring one to Eleanor

       23    Criswell?

       24    A.  We already discussed the possibility, if she was willing to

       25    do this, of running off the Xerox copies or having it done.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    And she indicated that she might do so if we wished it, so I

        2    brought it back in the case.

        3    Q.  Did she have a printing operation that was basically

        4    xeroxing things in reduced size?

        5    A.  That's right.

        6    Q.  Did it have a name?

        7    A.  Free Person Press.

        8    Q.  During this second trip, I'll call it, to California, did

        9    you meet with Ms. Criswell?

       10    A.  Yes, I did.

       11    Q.  Where did you meet with her?

       12    A.  In her office.

       13    Q.  Which, again, was where?

       14    A.  She had two.  One at the university where she was teaching

       15    at Sonoma State, and the other one in San Francisco which was

       16    on Ninth Street; Ninth and Bryant.

       17    Q.  So it was in one of those offices?

       18    A.  That was in Sonoma, quite a bit north.

       19    Q.  Dr. Criswell testified that she had an appointment book

       20    that showed she met with you on July 10, 1975; do you remember

       21    her testimony about that?

       22             MR. FABIAN:  Objection.

       23             THE COURT:  Sustained.

       24    Q.  You testified you were in California in early July.  The

       25    Tall Ships was July 4th, correct?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Correct.

        2    Q.  From your own memory, where do you place this meeting

        3    timewise?

        4    A.  I think it was July 7th.

        5    Q.  Why do you say the 7th as opposed to the 8th or 10th?

        6    A.  Subsequently I heard that's when the meeting was, but I

        7    can't say for sure.  It wasn't later than the 10th.

        8    Q.  It was in the vicinity of after the 4th of July?

        9    A.  Oh, yes.

       10    Q.  In early July?

       11    A.  Still in the first two weeks of July.

       12    Q.  And what did you discuss with Dr. Criswell at this meeting;

       13    what did you say and what did she say with regard to the

       14    manuscript?

       15    A.  First I told her of my decision not to continue with my

       16    doctoral work, and she said she wasn't too surprised.  And she

       17    indicated, I thought with a great deal of support, that if she

       18    had something like that, she would probably make that her work

       19    too.  I told her I had hoped to be able to use it as my

       20    doctoral degree as a basis, but after my discussion with

       21    Drs. Thetford and Schucman, and since I was now part of the

       22    family, I could be the non doctor.  And so I told her I

       23    probably was not going to do this.

       24    Q.  This meaning?

       25    A.  Continue with doctorate degree.  I didn't cut it off.  I

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    still had a deposit there, and I told her I had spoken to Dr.

        2    Thetford and Dr. Schucman about reducing the size of the

        3    manuscript because it was, indeed, very heavy to carry.  And

        4    she said she would be glad to do it.

        5    Q.  Were any arrangements made regarding the xeroxing of

        6    multiple copies of the manuscript?

        7    A.  Well, she said she would do it with me.

        8    Q.  What did you understand from your conversation with

        9    Dr. Criswell the process would be?  What was going to be done

       10    to the 1500 pages of xeroxed 8 by 11 that you had?

       11    A.  They had to be pasted up, and we would take them to Kopy

       12    Kat in Berkeley.  Actually, she took them.  And they would be

       13    run off there.  We decided that it would be 100 copies the

       14    first one.  We didn't think there would be many more after

       15    that, and that they would have a cover on them.  It would be

       16    like a paperback, and that was it.

       17    Q.  I want to just make sure I understand.

       18             Was there any talk at this time that the -- do you

       19    know what typesetting is?

       20    A.  Oh, of course.  Yes, I do.

       21    Q.  Was Dr. Criswell going to typeset this book in a new

       22    format?

       23    A.  No.

       24    Q.  What was the meaning of reproduction?

       25    A.  It was xeroxing.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  You said reduced?

        2    A.  They take a photograph -- in those days they did it that

        3    way -- of each single page of the document, every single one of

        4    the 1500 pages.  And then they had it on some kind of film,

        5    which they were able to xerox a smaller size.

        6    Q.  So it ends up being a xerox copy of your eight by 11, but

        7    it is a smaller type?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  But it is an exact replication of the xerox?

       10    A.  It is exact, yes.

       11    Q.  Was there any discussion with Dr. Criswell July 7th, July

       12    10th, whatever the date was, 1975, about copyrighting the work?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  Please tell in as much detail as you can about what you

       15    said and what Dr. Criswell said about that topic?

       16    A.  Of course.  We put the copyright notice on it, and who do

       17    you want it to be, do you want it to be Dr. Schucman or do you

       18    want it to be what.  I told her Dr. Schucman said she wanted it

       19    to be The Foundation for Parasensory Investigation, and

       20    Dr. Schucman didn't want her name on it.  And she had given the

       21    manuscript here, Foundation of Parasensory Investigation, you

       22    publish it under your name.

       23    Q.  You so advised Dr. Criswell?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  Now, did you leave a copy of the entire 1500 page

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    manuscript that you had an additional copy of, did you leave

        2    that were Dr. Criswell?

        3    A.  Yes, I did.

        4    Q.  Although it's covered, I want the record to be clear.  For

        5    what purpose?

        6    A.  Because she was going to begin the process of paste up and

        7    then it would be xeroxed over and over and over again after it

        8    was reduced in size.  And then we would have our first version

        9    of the manuscript in an easier to carry form.

       10    Q.  And did you leave the 1500 page eight by 11 copy of the

       11    manuscript with Dr. Criswell?

       12    A.  Yes, I did.

       13    Q.  How long did you stay in California on this second trip?

       14    A.  I didn't stay very long, but I would think, perhaps, it was

       15    just a few days after that.

       16    Q.  Now, did Dr. Criswell -- did this copying process get

       17    completed in that period?

       18    A.  No.

       19    Q.  How was it left with Dr. Criswell?

       20    A.  That she would take the pages home and begin the process of

       21    mounting them.

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  With the Court's indulgence, I just

       23    need to --

       24             (Pause)

       25    Q.  And do you recall about when you returned to New York?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Yes, it was sometime in the middle of July.

        2    Q.  Is there something that helps fix your focus on the dates?

        3    A.  Yes, there is.

        4    Q.  Tell us.  Tell the Court what that is.

        5    A.  Well, I needed to be home at least as early as July 17th or

        6    18th because it was my husband's 50th birthday, and I was

        7    giving him a party.

        8    Q.  You remember it was Robert Skutch's 50th birthday?  What

        9    was the date of his birthday?

       10    A.  It was July 19, 1955.

       11    Q.  Did you leave in time for his birthday?

       12    A.  Earlier because there was two parties.

       13    Q.  We set the meeting July 7th.  I represent hers was July

       14    10th.  That period of time, right?

       15    A.  Yes.

       16    Q.  When do you place it that you returned to New York?

       17    A.  I can't give you the exact date, because there are other

       18    circumstances that I recall that place me back there.

       19    Certainly not later than the 14th or the 15th.

       20    Q.  So you believe you were back by the 14th or 15th to New

       21    York?

       22    A.  I do.

       23    Q.  Certainly by July 19th, no question?

       24    A.  Yes, there were two parties, one was the 18th and one was

       25    at the 19th.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  You were at both of those?

        2    A.  Oh, yes.

        3    Q.  Did you meet and interact with Dr. Schucman and

        4    Dr. Thetford upon your return?

        5    A.  Yes, I did.

        6    Q.  Did you discuss anything about Dr. Criswell?

        7    A.  Yes, I discussed with him that I had left the manuscript

        8    with Dr. Criswell, and I called him from the telephone when I

        9    was there.  So I was in communication with him every day.  And

       10    I told him Dr. Criswell had the manuscript, for which Helen was

       11    very nervous and Bill was very glad.

       12    Q.  The process?

       13    A.  Of xeroxing it until we had the right size in a carryable

       14    portable version.

       15    Q.  Now, it's been suggested that you had given -- that dozens

       16    if not hundreds of copies of the manuscript had been xeroxed.

       17    Leaving the copy of Dr. Criswell aside, are you aware of those

       18    facts?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  You made some statements that might suggest that, correct?

       21    A.  Yes, I certainly have.

       22    Q.  Until the Criswell xeroxing of the manuscript went out, had

       23    there been any general widespread distribution of this

       24    manuscript?

       25    A.  Not at all.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  How certain are you of that?

        2    A.  Absolutely positive.

        3    Q.  You're around Bob's birthday, 18th, 19th, what was

        4    Dr. Thetford's and Dr. Schucman's reaction that Dr. Criswell

        5    was putting this format together?

        6    A.  They were anxious to meet her, and we arranged to go to

        7    California a short time after that.  But I think we had talked

        8    about that before because they had a vacation month coming and

        9    they usually went someplace together with Helen's husband and

       10    Dr. Wapnick.  So we talked about the trip, the forthcoming

       11    trip, we talked about meeting Dr. Criswell.  We talked about

       12    arrangements for when they were there.  We talked about what we

       13    were going to do on vacation time.

       14    Q.  Who was going out on this planned trip to California?

       15    A.  Dr. Schucman, Dr. Thetford, Dr. Wapnick and Louis Schucman.

       16    Q.  Were you going out?

       17    A.  Oh, yes.

       18    Q.  Was Bob Skutch, your husband, going out?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  Did a group trip occur?

       21    A.  Yes, they came out together, and I went out a day or two

       22    earlier to get ready for them.

       23    Q.  You didn't travel on the plane with them?

       24    A.  No.

       25    Q.  Have you been able to establish through all of the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    discovery in this case approximately when this group trip

        2    occurred?

        3    A.  Yes, I have.

        4    Q.  When did it occur?

        5    A.  Well, they left, I believe --

        6    Q.  When did you go out to California?

        7    A.  I went around the 20th, 21st, to the best of my

        8    recollection.

        9    Q.  And when did the rest of the group come out?

       10    A.  I believe they arrived on either the 22nd or the 23rd, but

       11    I'm pretty sure now it's the 23rd.

       12    Q.  Of July?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  1975?

       15    A.  Right.

       16    Q.  What arrangements had been made for Helen and Louis

       17    Schucman, Dr. Thetford and Dr. Wapnick; what arrangements had

       18    been made?

       19    A.  I had rented places for them.  They were suites for the

       20    month for each of them, so Dr. Schucman and her husband had one

       21    suite, and Dr. Wapnick may have had a room or suite and

       22    Dr. Thetford had his private place, all in a building 2000

       23    Broadway, which rented by the month.

       24    Q.  And that was what city?

       25    A.  San Francisco.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  Was that the segment that you had to stay for a month at a

        2    time?

        3    A.  Well, it was a lease I signed.

        4    Q.  For the three rooms?

        5    A.  For the three rooms for a month.

        6    Q.  When you were deposed on this, did you find a document that

        7    helped set your mind straight on the dates that we're

        8    discussing?

        9    A.  Yes, I did.

       10    Q.  What document did you find?

       11    A.  I found a bill from a utility company called PG&E, that's

       12    Pacific Gas and Electric for a small portion of their trip

       13    kenneth Wapnick received at 2000 Broadway.  I think it was even

       14    sent to him there.  And I say a short time, because their

       15    billing --

       16    Q.  You found a bill?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  Where did you find the bill?

       19    A.  I found the bill in an old carton that I had memorabilia of

       20    my children.

       21    Q.  Did you find the original of the bill?

       22    A.  Yes, I did.

       23    Q.  Do you have the original with you?  Do you have the

       24    original?

       25    A.  Yes, I do.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  I'm going to mark as Exhibit 5, it's an envelope that says

        2    Pacific Gas and Electric Company with a postmark San Francisco

        3    of August 14, 1975.  And inside is a little remittance envelope

        4    and a bill.  Let me show these to you.  I'm going to approach

        5    and place before you what we have marked as Exhibit 5, and ask

        6    if you can identify this.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  I have an extra copy for the Court if

        8    that would be of assistance.

        9             By the way, your Honor, sort of a housekeeping thing,

       10    I don't know if I formally moved into evidence the manuscript.

       11    We had an excerpt where the full one was Exhibit 3, the excerpt

       12    was Exhibit 4, so I would formally move those into evidence.

       13             THE COURT:  They are admitted.

       14             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 and 4 received in evidence)

       15    Q.  Can you identify what we marked as Exhibit 5?

       16    A.  Yes, I can.

       17    Q.  What is it?

       18    A.  PG&E bill made out to Dr. Kenneth Wapnick -- they

       19    misspelled his name -- at 2000 Broadway, Suite 602 San

       20    Francisco, California.

       21    Q.  And there is a segment of service it says July 23rd to

       22    August 4th, '75; do you see that?

       23    A.  Yes, I do.

       24    Q.  How does this help you establish the date that you went

       25    back out to San Francisco?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    A.  Because their utilities were already activated by me for

        2    the day of their arrival.

        3    Q.  How long did Ken Wapnick and the Schucmans and Bill

        4    Thetford stay at 2000 Broadway?

        5    A.  They stayed for one month.

        6    Q.  This was only the first portion of that stay?

        7    A.  Yes, sir, but I believe the original envelope says August

        8    14th, so it got mailed later and he was still there.

        9    Q.  You're quite certain because you made the lease that it was

       10    for one month?

       11    A.  Yes, I am.

       12    Q.  So you're out there a few days early.  Let's turn to July

       13    22nd or July 23rd when the group arrives.

       14             Do you meet them in California?

       15    A.  Yes, Dr. Jampolsky and I each took a car and met them.

       16    Q.  Where did you proceed?

       17    A.  We proceeded to 2000 Broadway to let them check in.

       18    Q.  Was there a reception, a meeting at 2000 Broadway?

       19    A.  Yes, but not that day.

       20    Q.  When was that?

       21    A.  I don't recall exactly the date, but it was during that

       22    period.  My guess is it was the end of July beginning of

       23    August.

       24    Q.  During that month's stay?

       25    A.  Yes.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  What was the purpose of the reception?

        2    A.  Well, it was just kind of to receive them, to have people

        3    meet them.  I had made a few calls when I got there to people

        4    that I had something interesting to share with them.  I knew

        5    these people that I called were professional colleagues and

        6    would all be interested if not in the document, certainly from

        7    the people who brought it forth.

        8    Q.  If you estimated, how many people attended in meeting?

        9    A.  The room was restricted for anything over 50.

       10    Q.  You remember that?

       11    A.  I checked on that, yes.  I do remember that, but I also

       12    made sure.

       13    Q.  When did you make sure?

       14    A.  About a year or so ago.

       15    Q.  How did you do that?

       16    A.  I my associate called up 2000 Broadway.  They have turned

       17    it into condo complexes.  And they said the person who answers

       18    to that, someone who was here for many years, they said, yes,

       19    we leased that room out, and it was for 50 and no more than 50

       20    were allowed to use it.

       21    Q.  Based on your own recollection, putting yourself back there

       22    to 1975 as you picture it, is that consistent?

       23    A.  Yeah, I think maybe there were 40, I think.  But it was

       24    hard for me to remember exactly how many.  There were my

       25    associates there.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    Q.  But you would estimate how many?

        2    A.  I would say between 30 and 40.

        3    Q.  Now, you were there during the entire reception?

        4    A.  Yes, I was.

        5    Q.  If there is a suggestion made that copies of a portion of A

        6    Course in Miracles were passed out; is that correct?

        7    A.  Helen would have passed out if that happened.

        8    Q.  I didn't say she passed out.  Were they passed out?

        9    A.  They definitely were not passed out.

       10    Q.  Did any of those 40 people there have all or part of the

       11    course?

       12    A.  Definitely not.

       13    Q.  Did Helen Schucman have a copy with her at the meeting?

       14    A.  That I don't remember.  I know I did not have mine or if

       15    she had hers or not.

       16    Q.  Do have you a recollection if part of it was passed out?

       17    A.  I doubt if it was passed out.  If she had it with her, it

       18    would be in black thesis binders.

       19    Q.  You were there the whole time?

       20    A.  Yes, I was.

       21    Q.  Did you observe any part of the manuscript being passed

       22    out?

       23    A.  No, I did not.

       24    Q.  What happened at the reception?

       25    A.  Well, I was sort of the host or hostess in those days, and

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    I introduced them and told a little bit about how I met them,

        2    which to me was quite remarkable.  And then I asked them if

        3    they would tell their story.  And they were a little hesitant

        4    about it, but I promised them that they were among friends.  I

        5    started the story they told me, and I said this is the story

        6    they told me just a little while ago on May 29th when I met

        7    them.  And I started with the bare bones of it, and they would

        8    say, oh, but this and we said, that and this is what it was

        9    like.  So the two of them did speak.

       10    Q.  Was there any extensive reading of any sort from the

       11    manuscript?

       12    A.  No, there was not reading from the manuscript.

       13    Q.  Was there any solicitation, any overture made, hey, if you

       14    would like copies, come up and see us and we'll get you some

       15    copies?

       16    A.  Definitely not.

       17    Q.  Was Dr. Criswell at the reception?

       18    A.  I think she was.  I seem to think she was, because they

       19    wanted to meet her, and it would have been the very natural

       20    thing to invite her.

       21    Q.  James Bolen?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  Gerry Jampolsky?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  No copies of the manuscript passed out at the reception?

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        1    A.  No, none.

        2    Q.  I don't want to hear if there was a travel log and you went

        3    to Carmel and the beach.

        4    A.  We did a lot of that.

        5    Q.  If Mr. Fabian wants to explore that, I'll allow it, but

        6    sticking to the course, what other activities took place from

        7    late July to August of 1975?

        8    A.  Well, we wanted to show them around, and one of the places

        9    we introduced them to was a place that I was staying with Gerry

       10    Jampolsky, a beautiful view.  So we used that for periodic

       11    meditations, the four of us, and then Helen's husband would

       12    wander around the streets and come back when we finished.

       13    Q.  He wasn't too into this?

       14    A.  He wasn't even a little.

       15    Q.  He was perplexed by the whole thing?

       16    A.  Amused.

       17    Q.  And Dr. Jampolsky's house, was there ever a time where you

       18    observed copies of the manuscript being distributed to anyone?

       19    A.  No, not at all.

       20    Q.  To your knowledge, did that happen?

       21    A.  No.

       22    Q.  What other activities related to the course happened in

       23    this one month period?

       24    A.  I wanted to show them where I spent a lot of time at

       25    Stanford Research Institute.  And I took them down south to SRI

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        1    and introduced them to my colleague, Russel Tarring and

        2    Dr. Harold Puttof, where we talked about general conversation

        3    about the work they were doing.

        4    Q.  Now, Stanford Research was part of Stanford University?

        5    A.  I don't believe it was.  It had recently separated, but I'm

        6    not sure of that.

        7    Q.  How would you characterize it in terms of legitimacy?

        8    A.  It's one of the finest in the country, as has been

        9    represented to me.

       10    Q.  A serious place?

       11    A.  Very serious.

       12    Q.  Who is Russel Tarring?

       13    A.  A physisist who had been a laser physisist for many years,

       14    and he had become interested through personal experience and

       15    meeting people in the outer reaches of human capability and

       16    extraordinary minds and the ability for people to know things.

       17    His brother-in-law was Bobby Fisher, the chess player, and I

       18    think that sort of instigated to him I guess, like where does a

       19    mind like this come from?  He also came from a publishing

       20    background.  His father was a well known publishing agent in

       21    New York City.  I met him and we became friends, and I met his

       22    father and stepmother, and he came to my house.

       23    Q.  He did some experiments for the government as remote

       24    viewing?

       25    A.  Many.

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        1    Q.  Would you characterize him as a scientist?

        2    A.  Well published.

        3    Q.  Is it your understanding that Mr. Tarring was deposed in

        4    this case?

        5    A.  Yes, it was.

        6    Q.  And we'll be proffering his deposition transcript; is that

        7    your understanding?

        8    A.  It is.

        9    Q.  Who was present at the meeting with Mr. Tarring at Stanford

       10    Research Institute?

       11    A.  Dr. Puttof wanted an out.  He wasn't too interested and

       12    then Russel Tarring had told me about a colleague of his, a

       13    co-inventor of a technology that I actually thought of using in

       14    my doctoral dissertation.  And he said that this person, David

       15    Hurt, was very, very interested in hearing about this because

       16    he had a deep interest in metaphysical literature, and wanted

       17    to know more about this document.

       18    Q.  Now, David Hurt was working at the Stanford Institute?

       19    A.  In and out, but he did work with Russel, yes.

       20    Q.  A scientist?

       21    A.  I believe an engineer.

       22    Q.  Did Mr. Tarring sort of vouch for Mr. Hurt?

       23    A.  Yes, he was a close partner.

       24    Q.  Was Dr. Schucman with you at this meeting or gathering at

       25    the research institute?

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