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80 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 of what they called perhaps revelation writings in my career. 2 And that this was the most profound and the most succinct and 3 the most organized that I had ever come across. 4 Q. Did you have any discussions about what, if anything, you 5 might be doing as part of this group in regards to the 6 manuscript? 7 A. Well, I did ask. 8 Q. What did you ask and of whom? 9 A. Well, I asked them, I actually asked them why me. 10 Q. Did any of them respond? 11 A. They both did. 12 Q. Bill and Helen? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did they tell you? 15 A. Bill told me a story of how over the years Helen was really 16 very disturbed by her role in this, she fought it very hard. 17 She actually tried to lose her shorthand notebooks, and a few 18 very funny incidents that are not so funny. And that she 19 really was deeply, deeply protective of her reputation and also 20 protective of her role in scribing this document. I was 21 surprised because they seemed to receive me. It was almost as 22 if Bill Thetford had said later that day at that meeting that 23 the family had come together. 24 Q. He said that to you? 25 A. Yes, he called us a family. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
81 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Were you plan planning at that point any trip out to 2 California? We're now at May 30th. 3 A. Well, I hadn't actually decided when to go, but Dr. 4 Jampolsky was quite adamant that I come as soon as possible, 5 and I was also going to see Dr. Eleanor Criswell. 6 Q. Another doctor? 7 A. Yes, she was going to be my advisor in my doctoral degree. 8 Q. You were taking a doctoral program in California? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What institution? 11 A. This was the Humanistic Psychology Institute, which is now 12 called Saybrook. 13 Q. Did you discuss with Dr. Thetford and Dr. Schucman that you 14 were going to be going to California at some point? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Did you mention Dr. Jampolsky's expressed interest in 17 seeing a copy of the manuscript? 18 A. I told them both about the conversation that I had on the 19 phone the night before or the day before when I left their 20 office. And Helen asked him questions about is he a real 21 doctor. 22 Q. What questions, to the best of your memory, did he ask 23 about Dr. Jampolsky; did she ask if he was a real doctor? 24 A. Yes, to her a Ph.D. was one thing and an M.D. was something 25 else, the hierarchy, I don't know. She wanted to know about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
82 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 his background, what work we had done together, just what he 2 was doing with his life and why he was so interested. 3 Q. What did you tell Dr. Schucman? 4 A. I told her a little of his background, that he was 5 extremely interested in this particular field, and that I felt 6 that he didn't have any prior spiritual training or spiritual 7 interest, but he may have caught my bug, the enthusiastic bug. 8 And that when I went to California, I would like to take the 9 document with me to show it to him. 10 Q. He was a Stanford educated M.D. psychiatrist, correct? 11 A. Yes, also University of California also. 12 Q. And you made that clear to Dr. Schucman? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. Did you value Dr. Jampolsky's views professionally in your 15 ongoing discourse with him? 16 A. Very much. 17 Q. What did Dr. Schucman or Dr. Thetford say in your response 18 to show Dr. Jampolsky the manuscript? 19 A. There was some discussion about it. Dr. Schucman finally 20 agreed with Dr. Thetford that 3,000 miles away was far enough. 21 She really didn't want this to compromise her reputation. They 22 asked me not to use their real names. We decided upon Dr. B 23 and Dr. H. 24 Q. I guess that would be Dr. Bill and Dr. Helen? 25 A. Well, I usually used to say Dr. B and Dr. H, but as events SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
83 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 transpired, other things -- 2 Q. They told you they did not want their names associated with 3 it, correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. They did authorize you to show it to Dr. Jampolsky? 6 A. Oh, yes. 7 Q. Were any restrictions, observations made about what could 8 be done with it with Dr. Jampolsky? 9 A. The document was to remain in my possession and he could 10 look at it. 11 Q. What was your purpose and intent with their permission in 12 showing it to your acquaintance, professional acquaintance, 13 friend, colleague Dr. Jampolsky? What was your intended 14 purpose in showing it to Dr. Jampolsky? 15 A. He was a trained professional in the field. I guess some 16 people could say hearing an inner voice is crazy, and he was 17 very interested in that sort of thing. I wanted his opinion 18 about the value of the manuscript. And I also wanted to see 19 whether or not we could get something from it together as a 20 working team. 21 Q. Did you obtain authorization from Dr. Schucman or 22 Dr. Thetford at this meeting, May 30, 1975 to show it to 23 anybody else? "It" bean the manuscript. 24 A. I believe I told them at that meeting or it could have been 25 the day after or the day after that, that I had a very good SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
84 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 friend in California who was also a professional associate, 2 Dr. James Bolen, who was the publisher of a magazine in the 3 field that we were interested in. And with their permission, I 4 might like to show it to them. 5 Q. Is it Dr. Bolen? 6 A. No, it is not. 7 Q. James Bolen. What was his position at the time in 1975? 8 A. He was a publisher and an editor of a magazine that was 9 well distributed. 10 Q. What was the name of the magazine? 11 A. At that time it was called Psychic Magazine. 12 Q. And what was the nature, if you will; what type of magazine 13 was it? 14 A. He reported on research in the field. It was a popular 15 magazine, so it was in lay people's terms. He did excellent 16 interviews with people who were known to be working in the 17 field, people who were subjects in the field. He would view 18 articles from medical journals or scientific journals in lay 19 language. And just impart information in a way that was 20 dignified. 21 Q. And you keep saying the field. He published a magazine in 22 the field. What field? 23 A. I call it consciousness research, because that's what it is 24 called today. In those days it was psychic or parapsychology 25 or paranormal. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
85 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. And you expressed to Drs. Schucman and Thetford some 2 interest at this meeting or in the next few days in showing it 3 to a publisher of a magazine in this field? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was their response? 6 A. They were a little hesitant until I told them something 7 about it. And I'm not sure if it was that day or the next day 8 because I met with them many days before I went to California 9 or subsequently where the question came up again what my role 10 was, why was I there. It didn't seem like an accident, and 11 Bill said the family, so I asked more about that. And he said 12 that they were very aware during the scribing of the document, 13 more towards the end, but certainly when it was over, that this 14 was not to be for them alone. That this was too important and 15 helpful a document for just their own personal use. And he 16 said we always knew that some day we would probably have to 17 publish it or have it published. We didn't know how to go 18 about that, so Helen who was used to communicating with this 19 internal voice asked the question, is this just for us? And 20 she felt her answer, so she said, was very clear, she would 21 write it down. No, it is not just for them. Is it also for 22 the public? Yes, it was to be for the public. And how would 23 this happen? And she said that that inner voice told her 24 someone would come and take it along its way. 25 Q. You said a couple of things. You said there was some talk SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
86 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 that it wasn't just for them. Did they tell you it was to be 2 freely disseminated? 3 A. Oh, no. They didn't want anyone to see it. Well, Bill 4 Thetford wanted me to see it. 5 Q. But at the same time, you're saying they had some sense 6 that at some point they felt that it had some need to be 7 published; is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did Dr. Schucman at any of these meeting in late May or 10 early June give you any authorization to show it to anyone, the 11 manuscript to anyone other than Mr. Bolen and Mr. Jampolsky? 12 A. At that point, no. 13 Q. Did she give you any instructions at all about 14 disseminating the manuscript? 15 A. Oh, yes. 16 Q. What did she say? 17 A. She said, she would rather I didn't take it, but Bill was 18 adamant, and I should be very, very careful. And that I 19 shouldn't mention her name or Bill's name. And I should honor 20 their privacy. And that was all I could remember. 21 Q. But honoring their privacy, did that mean you could show it 22 to anyone you wanted as long as you didn't mention their name? 23 A. No. 24 MR. FABIAN: Objection, this is just conclusory 25 testimony. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
87 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. What did Dr. Schucman state to you on that topic? It's 2 part my fault. It's not a conversation. It's question and 3 answer. So I'll be more precise. 4 What did Dr. Schucman tell you about disseminating the 5 manuscript? 6 A. She gave me -- 7 MR. FABIAN: If I could just, so the record is clear, 8 this goes exactly again to the heart of the issue in this 9 litigation. It's hearsay, and I would, again, object as I have 10 in the past. 11 MR. ROSENBERG: It's not hearsay, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 Q. What did Dr. Schucman tell you about the dissemination 14 about the manuscript? We're now in late May, early June of 15 1975. 16 A. She told me I was allowed to show it to Dr. Gerald 17 Jampolsky and I was allowed to show it to James Bolen. I was 18 not allowed to show it to anyone else. 19 Q. Were you ever given authorization, and I'm talking about 20 the manuscript, this thesis bound manuscript, were you ever 21 given authority to make any widespread dissemination of the 22 manuscript? 23 A. Not at all. 24 Q. Were you given contrary instructions? 25 A. I certainly was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
88 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. How often? 2 A. I think after the beginning they recognized that I was 3 following them because we spent so much time together. 4 Q. The question was how often? 5 A. I couldn't tell you that sir. Many times. 6 Q. Any equivocation about the instruction? 7 A. Not at all. 8 Q. Again, Dr. Wapnick was present during some of these 9 conversations? 10 A. Almost all of them. 11 Q. And he will becoming in as far as you know? 12 A. Yes, he will. 13 Q. Did you go to California following the May 30, 1975 14 meeting? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. About when? 17 A. Sometime probably before the middle of June. 18 Q. So sometime roughly in the first two weeks of June; would 19 that be a fair characterization? 20 A. Yes, not later. 21 Q. Did you bring the manuscript with you? 22 A. Yes, I did, in a shopping bag on the plane. 23 Q. So these hard bound heavy thesis binders, which I can 24 barely pick up, you had in a shopping bag? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
89 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. And carried them out to California on a plane? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. How many other copies of the manuscript did you have at 4 this time when were you making this plane ride? 5 A. None. 6 Q. That was the only one you had at that time; is that 7 correct? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. Not covering your whole trip to California that doesn't 10 pertain to the manuscript, I want to focus on the manuscript 11 you're talking about Dr. Jampolsky. I want to ask you, did you 12 meet with him during the first half of June? 13 A. Yes, I was staying at his home. 14 Q. Did you show him the manuscript? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Dr. Jampolsky had his deposition taken in this case, is 17 that your understanding? 18 A. I believe he did. 19 MR. ROSENBERG: And we'll be proffering that later to 20 the Court, your Honor. 21 Q. Tell us what happened when you get to California with the 22 manuscript and Dr. Jampolsky? 23 A. He was very anxious to see it. And he asked me to read him 24 a little bit of it aloud. He didn't have too easy a time 25 studying or reading because he was dyslexic, and so I started SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
90 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 reading it aloud to him. 2 Q. What did he say? 3 A. He said he thought it was the most important thing that 4 ever happened to him in his life. 5 Q. Did you tell him any part of the story about what Helen and 6 Bill told you about what the course came to be? 7 A. I certainly did. 8 Q. Did you tell him anything about what could be done in terms 9 of distributing the course at this time? 10 A. Oh, yes. 11 Q. What did you tell him? 12 A. I told him that these two people were not anxious for 13 anybody to know about it, and I had to get special permission 14 since he had asked me as soon as I told him about it. And I 15 got that special permission. 16 Q. What happened in regards to the course between you and Dr. 17 Jampolsky during this trip? 18 A. Well, during this trip I read it out loud. I read more to 19 him. He read some himself. He said this is going to be 20 something I'm going to be working on for the rest of my life. 21 And then he said he would like to speak to these people. 22 Q. What did you say in response? 23 A. Well, I called them. And I said I have Dr. Jampolsky here 24 who would like to make your acquaintance and like to speak to 25 you, is that all right? And they decided it was all right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
91 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. So there is a telephone call with Dr. Jampolsky and 2 Dr. Schucman and Thetford? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. To your knowledge, was he given any authority to 5 disseminate the course in its manuscript form? 6 A. From my knowledge, he was not. 7 Q. At this time you only had one copy with you, the one in the 8 black thesis binders; is that correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You have mentioned in your testimony that you had also 11 sought permission to show the manuscript to a James Bolen, a 12 magazine publisher and editor, correct? 13 A. Yes, that's correct. 14 Q. Did you see Mr. Bolen during your trip to California in 15 early June of 1975? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. And is it your understanding that Mr. Bolen is going to be 18 coming in to testify during these proceedings? 19 A. Yes, he will. 20 Q. And where did you meet with Mr. Bolen? 21 A. I met with him at his office in San Francisco on Beach 22 Street where he had his publishing office. 23 Q. Did he have a partner or colleague who was sort of his 24 co-publisher or co-editor? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
92 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Who was that? 2 A. Mr. David Hammond. 3 Q. Was Mr. Hammond, to your recollection, present at the 4 office of the magazine that day? 5 A. He was in and out of the office, yes. I saw him there. 6 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Bolen? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. Did you have the manuscript with you? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Which at this point is the only copy that you have? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What happened at this meeting with yourself and Mr. Bolen? 13 A. Well, Mr. Bolen -- I told him the background of the story 14 without mentioning the names of Dr. Schucman and Dr. Thetford. 15 And he said, let me see it. And I showed him a portion. I 16 didn't take everything out. I showed him a portion and he 17 started to read it and he was reading. He, obviously, wanted 18 to read more, but he started to laugh in a way that seemed to 19 me to be slightly inappropriate. 20 Q. Did you say something to Mr. Bolen? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. In substance, what did you say? 23 A. I asked him if he thought it was very funny. He said, I'm 24 so close to tears that I'm laughing. He said this is very 25 thrilling to me. He said he had seen many different kinds of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
93 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 material, and that this was so powerful to him. 2 Q. Were any arrangements made for Mr. Bolen to get a copy of 3 the course at the meeting? 4 A. Well, he wanted a copy. And I knew, of course, that Dr. 5 Jampolsky wanted a copy. And I called up Dr. Schucman and 6 Thetford. There was a three-hour time difference, and it was 7 their morning and they were at the University. And I asked 8 them if it was all right for me to leave a copy with Dr. 9 Jampolsky and Mr. James Bolen. And Helen made the remark that 10 I remember that well, if he publishes something called Psychic 11 Magazine, I'm not very happy about that. She did not want the 12 material connected to something that was loosely called 13 Psychic. She felt that was not its genre. 14 Q. What did you say to her? 15 A. I said to her I trust him, he has given me excellent 16 advice, he is a publisher, and he knows more people in the 17 field than I do, and I would like his opinion, and he won't be 18 able to read it unless I leave him a copy. Bill was on the 19 phone and he felt it was all right and she agreed. 20 Q. Did you specifically mention in this conversation that Dr. 21 Jampolsky also wanted a copy? 22 A. I believe that this happened a day or two before that, but 23 I can't exactly recollect. 24 Q. But at some point you mentioned to Helen and Bill that Dr. 25 Jampolsky wanted a copy? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
94 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Oh, yes, he told them on the telephone he did. 2 Q. What was that response to the request that you give a copy 3 to Mr. Bolen, a magazine publisher in this field? 4 A. It was all right as long as the caveat as it being kept 5 under wraps, that it not be published in his magazine, and that 6 he just study it for purposes of giving me some opinion as a 7 publisher. 8 Q. And how about Dr. Jampolsky, what was Helen and Bill's 9 response to his request to see the manuscript? 10 A. Well, since I had spoken to him direct for quite a while on 11 the telephone, and I think they were impressed with his 12 sincerity -- 13 Q. That's your opinion. What was said? 14 A. I did not hear the conversation with Dr. Jampolsky and Drs. 15 Schucman and Thetford. I just know the result of it was that I 16 was allowed to leave a copy. 17 Q. So we're now back in June at the office of Mr. James Bolen, 18 the office of Psychic Magazine. Did you discuss with Mr. Bolen 19 copying the manuscript? 20 A. He told me right away he wanted to copy it, which is why I 21 called them. So, yes, I came back and told them that it was 22 all right, and that he could have a copy. And I do not 23 remember whether he suggested or I told him that I also would 24 need a copy for Dr. Jampolsky because I was not going to leave 25 mine there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
95 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. Now, did you say anything to Mr. Bolen about what he could 2 or couldn't do with the manuscript you were going to leave and 3 the copy he was going to make? 4 A. Well, I certainly told him that he was to keep it very much 5 under wraps. I had told him that Helen and Bill kept it in a 6 locked filing cabinet. And I told him that this was for his 7 eyes to read and for him to give me an opinion. 8 Q. Did he have any response to that instruction, that 9 observation? 10 A. From what I remember, it was totally in accord with the way 11 he practices profession. 12 Q. Was it your understanding that he receive as part of his 13 role as magazine editor and publisher different manuscripts? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Let me ask you this, did he respond to your discussion that 16 it has to be kept under wraps? Did he say he agreed, disagreed 17 or did he respond? 18 A. He agreed. 19 Q. What happened that day with the manuscript? 20 A. Well, I left it with him. 21 Q. And did you retrieve it? 22 A. Oh, yes. 23 Q. How long after? 24 A. I don't remember exactly. I think it was the next day or 25 the day after. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
96 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 Q. And you came back to -- where did the retrieval take place? 2 A. At his office. 3 Q. How many copies did Mr. Bolen make? 4 A. I believe he ran off three. 5 Q. So he had your manuscript now plus three? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. To your knowledge from this meeting you're in his office, 8 what happened with the three copies? 9 A. Well, he gave me one for Dr. Jampolsky. 10 Q. Did he give you your own back? 11 A. Certainly he gave me my own back, and I believe he retained 12 two for himself. 13 Q. And if you remember, did you reiterate at this meeting your 14 instruction that it not be diseminated? 15 A. I don't remember that. 16 Q. Either way you don't remember that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. We're now in California in early to mid-June. Now, you had 19 two now, your own and a copy, correct? 20 A. Well, I had given the copy when I got back to where I was 21 staying to Dr. Jampolsky. 22 Q. That was my next question. 23 So Jim Bolen has two? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. You have two as you leave Jim Bolen's office? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
97 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. That's a lot to carry, correct? 3 A. I had help. I had a nice friendly taxi driver. 4 Q. You go back to Dr. Jampolsky's, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what do you do with the two copies that you have your 7 own and the additional copy? 8 A. Mine I put where I kept my things, and the other one I gave 9 to Dr. Jampolsky, and I believe it was gray boxes that you get 10 from the copy house to put them in. So we had a stack of them. 11 I don't remember how many. 12 Q. So it is eight and a half by 11, correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Like the excerpt, Exhibit 4? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. But 1500 give or take pages? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And you gave that to Dr. Jampolsky? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And you previously communicated to him the restrictions on 21 distributing it? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. To your knowledge, how often did you see Dr. Jampolsky 24 during June, July, August of 1975? 25 A. I saw him that week, and then another time that was more SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
98 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 towards the end of June or beginning of July, and then went 2 back to New York. And then I saw him for about six weeks, 3 staying at his place, from the 23rd of July until almost the 4 end of August. 5 Q. We'll get to those as we go through this. 6 My question is: To your knowledge, from your own 7 observation from what Dr. Jampolsky told you, did he ever 8 distribute copies of his copies of the course to the public? 9 A. From my knowledge, from what he told me, he never did. 10 Q. How about Jim Bolen, do you know if he made any kind of 11 distribution outside of his magazine? 12 A. As far as I know, Jim Bolen never made any distribution. 13 Although he did have an article about it subsequently, two or 14 three articles. 15 Q. And we'll talk about that. 16 There was this fellow David Hammond, he worked with 17 Mr. Bolen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Other than Mr. Hammond and Mr. Bolen, do you know of any 20 facts that would suggest, evidence, from your own observation, 21 your own experience, that Mr. Bolen's copy was disseminated? 22 A. No, not at all. 23 Q. Now, my memory was that when you were going to California, 24 you were going to see Dr. Jampolsky. You have talked about 25 that, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
99 35jopenf Skutch-Whitson - direct 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Mr. Bolen, correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And my notes say Eleanor Criswell something with doctoral 5 thesis? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you see Dr. Criswell during this trip in June of 1975? 8 A. Yes, I saw her briefly in the library at the office of the 9 American Humanistic Institute. 10 Q. Now, you're aware that Dr. Criswell has been deposed in 11 this case? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And her deposition will be proffered to the Court; is that 14 your understanding? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. Do you recall that in her deposition, she places this first 17 meeting with you in July of 1975; do you remember hearing that 18 or reading that? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Is that consistent with your memory? 21 A. It's consistent with my memory that I did meet her in July, 22 but I also met her in June. 23 Q. So if Dr. Criswell testified that your first meeting was in 24 July, that's not your recollection? 25 A. No, it is not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 |
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