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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  Is there any way anyone can know?

        2    A.  No.

        3    Q.  Do you know what kind of tape recorder was used to make the

        4    original of what we call the Mazza tapes?

        5    A.  No.

        6    Q.  Do you know the identity of the operator of the recording

        7    device?

        8    A.  No, sir.

        9    Q.  Now, I asked Mr. Mazza whether the operator was competent.

       10    He testified he doubted it.  Would you concur with that?

       11    A.  I see errors that were performed.  That wasn't very

       12    professional.

       13    Q.  We have discussed whether changes, additions or deletions

       14    have been made.  There is no way, as I say, for you to testify

       15    what happened when the tape recorder was stopped and started,

       16    is there?

       17    A.  True.

       18    Q.  And, again, your report didn't mention any of these

       19    anomalies, did it?

       20    A.  It did not.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, can I have one moment to

       22    consult my expert to see what I have forgotten something,

       23    because I always forget something?

       24             (Pause)

       25    Q.  Did you, sir, do a magnetic development test on the Mazza

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    tapes?

        2    A.  Yes, I did.

        3    Q.  Did you do it on the four ARE tapes?

        4    A.  No.

        5    Q.  Because there would be no purpose?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  We do have an expert, but I would

        8    submit on this record these tapes have not met the standards.

        9             MR. FABIAN:  If I just might ask a couple of questions

       10    in response.

       11    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       12    BY MR. FABIAN:

       13    Q.  Mr. Gattillo, in connection with the Mazza tape where you

       14    did not -- did you examine the excerpts or did you examine the

       15    entire tapes in connection with all of the types of testing

       16    that you did?

       17    A.  In particular it was the excerpts which was what the

       18    request was.

       19    Q.  You indicated previously in your testimony that when

       20    examined the Mazza tapes, you did three or four or five

       21    different types of tests; is that correct?

       22    A.  Yes.

       23    Q.  Did you do those tests on the full tapes?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  And in connection with the examination of the entire tapes

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - redirect

        1    in the Mazza situation, did you find any anomalies, which

        2    although in your report indicated any tampering or altering of

        3    the tapes?

        4    A.  Of course start and stops are cause for concern.

        5    Q.  In connection with the Mazza tapes, I believe you indicated

        6    you did wave form analysis and spectrum analysis and so forth?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  Would they be indicative of any cuts or splices in the reel

        9    to reel tape?

       10    A.  No.

       11    Q.  What would be a test to see if there had been any cuts or

       12    splices in the reel to reel?

       13    A.  The tests that I performed, which would be the magnetic

       14    resolution, the listening, the wave form analysis; all of it.

       15    Q.  On the basis of all of those tests which you did on the

       16    entire Mazza tapes, did you find any evidence of tampering or

       17    deletions or splicing or anything to that effect?

       18    A.  No.

       19    Q.  Now, in connection with the ARE tapes themselves and in

       20    particular Mr. Rosenberg just examined you in connection with

       21    the Wagner tape, would it be your opinion that if there is

       22    something that is unintelligible on the tape, that it

       23    definitely means it is untrustworthy?

       24    A.  No.

       25    Q.  When you say that you didn't authenticate the ARE tapes, am

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - redirect

        1    I to understand your testimony to mean that you didn't do any

        2    tests whatsoever on the ARE tapes?

        3    A.  No, I did all the tapes on the magnetic resolution.

        4    Q.  When you say that you didn't authenticate it, that in your

        5    parlance means you weren't able to look at the original tape?

        6    A.  Yes, sir.

        7             MR. FABIAN:  I have no further questions.

        8             MR. ROSENBERG:  I think I have made plaintiff's point.

        9             THE COURT:  You are excused; thanks.

       10             (Witness excused)

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  I would move to exclude the tapes.  I

       12    don't think the Court needs to hear more testimony.

       13             THE COURT:  Let me ask you what the offer is.  I mean,

       14    obviously, there has been testimony about the excerpts.  How

       15    many of these excerpts are there and what do they purport to

       16    be?

       17             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, in connection with the

       18    experts themselves, they purport, for example, in connection --

       19    we'll start with the Mazza tape.  As we indicated, for example,

       20    on tape 1 of the Mazza tape, which appears on page 31 and 33 of

       21    the transcript, Ms. Skutch Whitson is testifying --

       22             MR. ROSENBERG:  She is not testifying.

       23             MR. FABIAN:  Excuse me, you're right.  She is speaking

       24    and she indicates in part that she gave a copy to her friend

       25    Gerry Jampolsky in California.  She indicates she brought it to

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - redirect

        1    California.  And then she goes on to say, so I brought it out

        2    to California.  Now they said I could bring it to California

        3    and show it to my friends, but not New York City where they

        4    live, referring to Helen and Bill.  Now California is 3,000

        5    miles away from sophisticated --

        6             THE COURT:  I get it.  What I'm trying to get is these

        7    are statements relative to the California distribution?

        8             MR. FABIAN:  Yes, it is, and she says in two weeks --

        9             THE COURT:  When I say -- that's all of these?

       10             MR. FABIAN:  Yes, none of them relate to North

       11    Carolina.  They relate to California distribution.

       12             THE COURT:  Okay.  And roughly speaking, if you had

       13    those transcripts all together, what are we talking about, 10

       14    pages, 20 pages?

       15             MR. FABIAN:  I put those on pages 8 through 10 of my

       16    memo.  So those particular excerpts are five minutes of

       17    reading, maybe 10 minutes of listening.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  There is a whole bunch on the tapes.

       19    If you get down this road, then minutes and tens of minutes.

       20    And we are here on an authentication issue.  The rules of

       21    evidence are quite clear.  There has to be authentication.

       22             THE COURT:  If we were trying this before a jury that

       23    would be one thing.  These tapes aren't worth very much because

       24    they are not complete.  We don't know where they came from.

       25    They are -- but if we are talking about five pages of excerpts,

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - redirect

        1    I'll review it.

        2             The difficulty is we don't know that even on this

        3    testimony we can't be sure that the tapes are integral, and we

        4    don't know that they are the complete transcript of the event.

        5    We don't know any of the instructions with respect to the

        6    manner in which the taping was done, et cetera, et cetera, et

        7    cetera.

        8             However, they might be useful for cross examination,

        9    and so bottom line, as they say in non-jury cases, I will take

       10    it for what it is worth.

       11             MR. ROSENBERG:  I'm an old man from Massachusetts.  We

       12    would have to say "note my exception".  I know we don't have to

       13    say that any more.

       14             THE COURT:  I don't think they are worth very much and

       15    I'm not going to be very impressed by them, but I will permit

       16    them.  I'll review them.

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  To save time, can they be reviewed in

       18    transcript form so we don't have to go through the process of

       19    cueing them up?

       20             THE COURT:  However you want to identify them.  I

       21    think they should be identified as to whether they are because

       22    of this report, in the event that I should end up holding for

       23    Mr. Fabian's clients.  In that case, we ought to be clear as to

       24    exactly what infirmities of these documents are.  So they

       25    should be introduced as to tape and so on.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Gattillo - redirect

        1             Now, I don't mean to cut you off, if you want to make

        2    a complete record and have your expert testify.

        3             MR. ROSENBERG:  I think I better do that.

        4             THE COURT:  That might be prudent.

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Thank you.  I understand.

        6             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Stand and raise your right hand.

        7     THOMAS J. OWEN,

        8         called as a witness by the Plaintiff

        9         having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       10             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, could I just, perhaps, have a

       11    minute?  I have not seen any curriculum vitae.

       12             Can I have a minute to look at his curriculum vitae?

       13             (Pause)

       14             MR. FABIAN:  Again, your Honor, having looked at this,

       15    we certainly don't need Mr. Rosenberg to qualify the witness.

       16    We'll accept his qualifications as an expert.

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  For record purposes, I move to

       18    introduce Mr. Owen, his resume.  I'll give two copies to the

       19    clerk so one can be marked and one can be given to the witness

       20    and one to the Court.  This would be, I guess, 2.

       21             THE COURT:  Yes.

       22             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 received in evidence)

       23             MR. ROSENBERG:  May I proceed?

       24             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

       25

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Owen - direct

        1    DIRECT EXAMINATION

        2    BY MR. ROSENBERG:

        3    Q.  Mr. Owen, just briefly, you know Mr. Gattillo, correct?

        4    A.  That's correct, I trained him.

        5    Q.  You trained him, right?

        6    A.  Yes.

        7    Q.  Now, did you have a chance to review the expert report,

        8    so-called, that Mr. Gattillo provided, Exhibits now B and C?

        9    A.  Yes, I did.

       10    Q.  Was there something about the assignment that caused you

       11    any pause?

       12    A.  Well, the assignment was narrowly focused.  Normally when

       13    we get an authenticity assignment, it's generally understood

       14    it's for the entire tape, not just for excerpt or excised

       15    portions of the tape.

       16             According to the training and the schooling and even

       17    the testing that I gave, and Mr. Gattillo passed with glowing

       18    reviews, the problem is with this particular assignment, it

       19    wasn't really an authenticity examination.

       20    Q.  What if Mr. Fabian or anybody asked you to review excerpts

       21    of a tape?

       22    A.  Well, if he asked me to do it from an authenticity

       23    standpoint, I would not take the case.  I would insist that we

       24    do the entire side of the tape, at least the entire side.  And

       25    also I would request in writing that he provide both the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           48

             35jopenf                 Owen - direct

        1    recorder and the original tape.

        2    Q.  Well, let's move quickly to that question.

        3             You heard about the four audio cassettes that are

        4    reflected in Exhibit C.  Those were copies admittedly, correct?

        5    A.  That's correct.

        6    Q.  Is than an appropriate way to review tapes for purposes of

        7    this sort of hearing that we're having today?

        8    A.  I don't review copies of tapes for authenticity.  I

        9    wouldn't take the case.

       10    Q.  You wouldn't take the case?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  Why is that?

       13    A.  Because it has no value in a court of law, and people end

       14    up having to pay twice.

       15    Q.  Meaning they pay for the copies?  You tell them there is no

       16    value, get me the originals?

       17    A.  Right.

       18    Q.  You might as well go right to the originals?

       19    A.  Maybe the used car salesman might use the bait and switch,

       20    but people who are legitimate in the authenticity business

       21    should not be doing that.

       22    Q.  You have been qualified in federal and state court many

       23    times?

       24    A.  About 80 times in 28 states.

       25    Q.  Your phrase reviewing the copies was of no value, more

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             35jopenf                 Owen - direct

        1    specifically, why is that?  What is it you can't tell from

        2    looking at the copies?

        3    A.  You can't tell -- for example, in this instance we're

        4    talking about excised portions or excerpts and so forth.  But

        5    there was an issue of the stops and starts on the tapes.  If

        6    there are stops and starts, as you pointed out before, you

        7    don't know what happened at the time that the recorder was

        8    stopped and restarted again.  Time can go by.  The continuity

        9    of the conversation, the lecture or whatever it was that was

       10    taking place at the time is not whole.  It is incomplete.

       11             As to the matter of its wholeness or incompleteness,

       12    that goes to the law, specifically US v. McGeiver.  We have

       13    said that in 1958 this was set down as the sentiment of what is

       14    authenticity and what constitutes an authentic recording.

       15             MR. FABIAN:  Objection to what the expert testifies

       16    the law is.  He is not an expert on the law.

       17             THE COURT:  Overruled.

       18    Q.  You are an expert on tapes and introduction of tapes,

       19    correct?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  Do you believe, based on your expert opinion, more than 80

       22    qualifications as an expert in 28 states, that the four

       23    cassettes have been properly shown to be authentic recordings

       24    for purposes of a court proceeding?

       25    A.  I don't think they meet the criteria for authenticity.

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             35jopenf                 Owen - direct

        1    Q.  By the way, is it possible that the originals of those

        2    tapes were tampered with?

        3    A.  Absolutely.

        4    Q.  Were edited?

        5    A.  Absolutely.

        6    Q.  Were monkeyed around with, if you will?

        7    A.  That's right.

        8    Q.  And you can't necessarily tell every such tampering,

        9    deletion, omission by looking at a copy, can you?

       10    A.  We can discover most of them, but some of them are going to

       11    get -- like what was referenced as drop outs on a

       12    multi-generational copy, that is usually a pause from a

       13    previous copy.  When there is pause the first time on the

       14    original, it leaves a signature on the tape and we can discover

       15    it as a pause.  After the tape has been copied a couple of

       16    times, that signature doesn't appear and we get the drop out in

       17    many cases the further you go down the line in the copy

       18    process.

       19    Q.  You don't know what happened during those drop outs?

       20    A.  No.

       21    Q.  Just to confirm, based on your professional opinion, these

       22    tapes have not been professionally authenticated, have they?

       23    A.  That's correct.

       24    Q.  In terms of the original Mazza reel to reel, Mr. Gattillo

       25    testified that it had been repeatedly stopped and started.  Did

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             35jopenf                 Owen - direct

        1    you hear that testimony?

        2    A.  Yes, I did.

        3    Q.  What concerns does that give rise to?

        4    A.  Again, it goes back to the law.  It doesn't mean the

        5    criteria for authenticity.

        6             MR. FABIAN:  Objection.  Move to strike.

        7             THE COURT:  Overruled.

        8    Q.  Have you listened to thousands and thousands of tapes?

        9    A.  Yes.

       10    Q.  What concerns arrive when you know an original tape has

       11    been stopped and started?

       12    A.  The biggest concern is you don't know what was said during

       13    the time it was stopped.

       14    Q.  There is no way to correct that, is there?

       15    A.  No.

       16             MR. ROSENBERG:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

       17             MR. FABIAN:  Just a few questions, your Honor.

       18    CROSS EXAMINATION

       19    BY MR. FABIAN:

       20    Q.  Mr. Owen, the test that Mr. Gattillo did on the Mazza

       21    tapes, are those the correct tests?

       22    A.  Yes, he described the correct tests.

       23    Q.  Any other tests that could have been done?

       24    A.  My only criticism was in the magnetic development that I

       25    didn't see any other magnetic development.  That would be the

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             35jopenf                 Owen - cross

        1    true test as to whether not the test is a true copy or

        2    original.

        3    Q.  Did you do any testing on the reel to reel Mazza tapes?

        4    A.  I didn't see the Mazza tapes.  I did not hear the Mazza

        5    tape.

        6    Q.  You did not see the tape itself?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  You didn't examine the Mazza tape?

        9    A.  No, I did not.

       10    Q.  Did you examine the ARE tapes at all?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  So you're testifying solely on the basis of your knowledge

       13    in general of tapes, but you did not listen to the ARE tapes?

       14    A.  I'm testifying on the content on what constitutes

       15    authenticity.

       16    Q.  If you had listened to the ARE tapes and they had been one

       17    continuous tape, even if they were a second generation, could

       18    they be authenticated in your view?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  By the way, you understand this is a civil case and not a

       21    criminal case?

       22    A.  That's correct.

       23    Q.  Do you have a different definition for criminal and civil?

       24    A.  Not when it comes to authenticity, no.

       25    Q.  You know these were not tapes by police investigators or

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             35jopenf                 Owen - cross

        1    state troopers for the purposes of presenting evidence at a

        2    criminal trial?

        3    A.  That's correct.

        4    Q.  These are tapes that were made by someone approximately 20

        5    years ago with no idea that they were going to be presented in

        6    evidence.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  Objection.  There is no observation

        8    about any of the circumstances.

        9    Q.  Is critical listening one of the tests that can be done in

       10    connection with the Mazza tape, for example?

       11    A.  Any tape, yes, that's correct.

       12    Q.  And the reel to reel is an original tape; is that correct?

       13    A.  Not necessarily.

       14    Q.  You don't know if in this particular case whether the Mazza

       15    tape is an original tape, you didn't examine it; is that

       16    correct?

       17    A.  That's correct.

       18    Q.  You heard the witness testify that he examined the Mazza

       19    tape and it wasn't an original; is that correct?

       20    A.  Yes, I did.

       21    Q.  And in connection with your testimony here today, you

       22    understand that, or I believe you heard Mr. Gattillo testify

       23    that he examined the entire Mazza tape.  You did hear him say

       24    that, didn't you?

       25    A.  Yes, I did.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           54

             35jopenf                 Owen - cross

        1    Q.  When you testified in response to Mr. Rosenberg about the

        2    excerpts, that was because you believed that letter that was

        3    sent to him and he said please look at the excerpts; is that

        4    correct?

        5    A.  With regard to what?

        6    Q.  With respect to the Mazza tapes.

        7    A.  I don't know what the letter said.

        8    Q.  So you don't know, you didn't personally know when you came

        9    here today whether Mr. Gattillo examined just the experts or

       10    the entire collection of the Mazza tapes?

       11    A.  That's correct.

       12    Q.  And today you heard Mr. Gattillo testify that he examined

       13    the entire Mazza tapes?

       14    A.  Yes, that's correct.

       15    Q.  And you heard him testify that he examined the entire ARE

       16    tapes?

       17    A.  I'm not so sure he said he examined them in its entirety.

       18    Q.  You didn't hear that in court?

       19             MR. FABIAN:  The record will speak for itself.

       20             I have no further questions.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  We have two experts both of whom

       22    concur that the four ARE tapes cannot be authenticated because

       23    they are copies.  I have to say as to those tapes there is

       24    nothing on the record.  You gave them three chances over the

       25    last year --

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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             35jopenf                 Owen - cross

        1             THE COURT:  Thanks.  You're excused.

        2             (Witness excused)

        3             THE COURT:  I think all of the tapes should be

        4    excused.  I will permit certain excerpts to be used in the

        5    course of the testimony.

        6             Okay, we'll take a few moments.

        7             (Recess)

        8             THE COURT:  Yes.

        9             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, we're prepared as

       10    plaintiffs to call our first witness, if the Court is still

       11    inclined.  I'll dispense with my five-hour opening statement,

       12    your Honor, as you requested.

       13             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Please remain standing and raise

       14    your right hand.

       15     JUDITH SKUTCH WHITSON,

       16         called as a witness by the Plaintiff

       17         having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       18    DIRECT EXAMINATION

       19    BY MR. ROSENBERG:

       20    Q.  Ms. Skutch Whitson, where do you reside?

       21    A.  I reside in California, a suburb of San Francisco called

       22    Chiberon.

       23    Q.  Is that where are you from originally?

       24    A.  No, I'm from New York City originally.

       25    Q.  How long have you been out on the west coast living out

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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                                                                           56

             35jopenf                 Skutch-Whitson - direct

        1    there?

        2    A.  Since 1978.

        3    Q.  Would you briefly tell us your educational background

        4    starting with your graduation from college?

        5    A.  After college I attended Columbia University.  It was the

        6    School of Journalism and Philosophy.

        7    Q.  Where did you graduate from college?

        8    A.  Wood College; Frederick, Maryland.

        9    Q.  And the delicate questions; in what year?

       10    A.  That's not delicate.  1952.

       11    Q.  How old are you?

       12    A.  I'm 72 years old.

       13    Q.  You made me feel younger.  I'm feeling old.  I was born in

       14    1952, so I feel a little better.  What educational pursuits did

       15    you study after your graduation from college?

       16    A.  I was studying English literature and philosophy and some

       17    classes in creative writing.

       18    Q.  And moving into the 1970s, early to mid 1970s, were you

       19    employed at the time?

       20    A.  In the 1970s, I was employed at New York University.

       21    Q.  And --

       22    A.  In the School of Continuing Education.  I was on the

       23    faculty of New York University.

       24    Q.  And what was your position; what did you do?

       25    A.  I was a lecturer, and I had a very large class, people who

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        1    were interested in the exploration of consciousness, which then

        2    was called parapsychology.

        3    Q.  Tell us a little bit about, because that word gets thrown

        4    about, what is parapsychology?

        5    A.  Well, since it was accepted to the AAAS, which is the

        6    Scientific Organization of America, I can say it is a science.

        7    And it's a science of the study of consciousness and all the

        8    parameters of consciousness that we know of to date,

        9    particularly extraordinary human functioning.

       10    Q.  And you were teaching this at NYU in the 1970s?

       11    A.  Yes, I was.

       12    Q.  And did you have other professional experiences, background

       13    in this consciousness research area other than at NYU?

       14    A.  Well, I studied courses in the late 60s and very early into

       15    '70 in the New School for Social Research, and they were also

       16    courses in philosophy and consciousness research.

       17    Q.  Were you a member of any boards or institutes or did you

       18    have any professional endeavors other than the NYU faculty?

       19    A.  I had a small not for profit organization which raised

       20    funds for study in universities and hospitals in the field of

       21    parapsychology.  I also was a member, a founding member, of the

       22    board of directors in the institute of noetic sciences, which

       23    is now based in California.

       24    Q.  Now, you mentioned you had a small foundation.  What was

       25    the name of it?

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        1    A.  It was the Foundation for Parasensory Investigation.

        2    Q.  And whether under that name or not, does that foundation

        3    still exist today?

        4    A.  Not under that name.  The name was changed in 1976, I

        5    believe, early in 1976 to the Foundation for Inner Peace.

        6    Q.  And then you mentioned that you had some role, I think, if

        7    my notes are right, about noetic sciences?

        8    A.  Yes.

        9    Q.  And what was that endeavor?

       10    A.  Well, the institute in noetic sciences was founded by one

       11    of our astronauts who was a member of Apollo 14, and he was the

       12    sixth man to walk on the moon.  And while there he had a deep

       13    and expanding mystical experience, and decided when he came

       14    back as a scientist to devote his life to the research of this

       15    kind of experience.

       16    Q.  What is his name?

       17    A.  Dr. Edgar Mitchell.

       18    Q.  And he founded Noetic Science Institute?

       19    A.  Yes, he did.

       20    Q.  What role in the 1970s did you have in that Institute?

       21    A.  Well, I was founding board member and I was vice-chairman

       22    of the board.

       23    Q.  And you have talked about teaching at NYU, your own

       24    studies, the noetic sciences, are you familiar with the

       25    Stanford Research Institute?

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        1    A.  Yes.

        2    Q.  What is that?

        3    A.  The Stanford Research Institute used to be part of Stanford

        4    University, but separated off before I knew them, probably in

        5    the 60s.  And they were dedicated to research in all fields.

        6    By the time I knew them, they were a contract organization so

        7    their research was really under contract.  And our Institute of

        8    Noetic Sciences contracted with them to do some studies for our

        9    institute.

       10    Q.  So you had some inner reaction -- we'll explore this

       11    later -- with the Stanford Research Institute as well?

       12    A.  Yes, I did.

       13    Q.  And I know the Judge will appreciate this.  We're going to

       14    find kind of move things along.  We're going to go to a

       15    specific date in 1975.

       16             Do you know, although they are no longer living, but

       17    did you know Dr. Helen Schucman and Dr. William Thetford?

       18    A.  Yes, I did.

       19    Q.  When did you meet them; do you recall.

       20    A.  Red letter day, I call it.  May 29, 1975.

       21    Q.  And can you describe to the Court, please, what the

       22    circumstances were that led up to your meeting Dr. Schucman and

       23    Dr. Thetford?

       24    A.  Yes, I will.

       25             Sometime in the middle of 1975, I was involved in

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