Home TMT Features Master Teacher A Course In Miracles Blogs Links Site Map


        1    35jopenf



        3    ------------------------------x






        6                   Plaintiffs,


        7               v.                           96 Civ. 4126



        9    ENDEAVOR, LTD., and ENDEAVOR

        9    ACADEMY,


       10                   Defendants.


       11    ------------------------------x


       12                                            May 19, 2003

       13                                            10:05 a.m.


       14    Before:


       15                         HON. ROBERT W. SWEET,


       16                                            District Judge


       17                              APPEARANCES


       18    EPSTEIN BECKER and GREEN, PC

       18         Attorneys for Plaintiffs

       19    JOHN ROSENBERG

       19    CARRIE FLETCHER


       20    LAWRENCE E. FABIAN

       21         Attorney for Defendants


       22    MONTY C. BARBER

       22         Attorney for Defendants







                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



        1             (In open Court; case called)

        2             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Please be seated.

        3             THE COURT:  How do we want to proceed, folks?  I got

        4    all the stuff about burden of proof, et cetera, et cetera.  I

        5    take it that, correct me if I'm wrong, the defense really has

        6    the burden of proof.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes, your Honor.  John Rosenberg for

        8    plaintiff.  Mr. Fabian and I have discussed a number of these

        9    issues, and with the Court's indulgence and permission, we

       10    believe it is prudent to proceed in this fashion.

       11             There are some issues about the tapes.  The defendants

       12    are going to take a shot to authenticate them.  Once that has

       13    taken place, we agree and concur that it is the defendant's

       14    burden in another copyright case that once the prima facie is

       15    established, it's up to the challenging party.

       16             For purposes of a cogent presentation, and with the

       17    Court's permission, we still think it makes sense, but without

       18    shifting the burden for the plaintiffs, because it's our

       19    witnesses who sort of tells the story of what happened here, to

       20    start that way, but Mr. Fabian and the defendants have their

       21    right to cross examine.  They can put on any defense witnesses

       22    as such, if that's okay.  Again, with the understanding that

       23    the burden remains on the defendants.

       24             MR. FABIAN:  Larry Fabian for the defendants.

       25             That's perfectly fine with us, your Honor.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



        1             THE COURT:  I don't think I need any opening

        2    statements.  My familiarity is painful and recent, so I think

        3    we can start.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  I can ask one question of the Court that

        5    Mr. Rosenberg and I had in connection with the exhibits that

        6    we're going to mark.  With respect to the experts, if they are

        7    marked in evidence, shall they be evidence at the trial or is

        8    your Honor considering them as an in limine motion?

        9             THE COURT:  Forget about in limine.  This is a trial.

       10    You can offer it and I'll hear you and deny your request and

       11    then we'll go on from there.  Who knows?

       12             MR. ROSENBERG:  We'll stipulate to that, your Honor.

       13             THE COURT:  I might not.  You never can tell.

       14    Incidentally, just a little housekeeping.  How long, oh, Lord?

       15             MR. ROSENBERG:  The great blues song, your Honor.

       16             We would think non jury we have cut it in half.  I

       17    think we'll be done by the end of the week.  Certainly

       18    Thursday.  We don't predict later than Friday.

       19             THE COURT:  It better be Thursday because there is no

       20    Friday.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  That's kind of forboding.  Do you know

       22    something I don't?

       23             THE COURT:  Yes, I do.

       24             MR. FABIAN:  There still may be at the end of the case

       25    some deposition transcripts.  We were wondering, would your

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



        1    Honor, perhaps, take them and we would each mark our objections

        2    on the side?

        3             MR. ROSENBERG:  We don't need to read them into the

        4    record?

        5             THE COURT:  No, they will be exhibits and you'll

        6    indicate what the relevant portions are.

        7             MR. ROSENBERG:  In that case, I think Thursday, since

        8    there is no Friday, is a realistic prediction.

        9             THE COURT:  Very good.

       10             Well, keep that in mind.  It's a graduation.  Sorry

       11    about that.  But keep that in mind as we go along, so that if

       12    we have to employ measures to get through, we can do that.

       13             MR. FABIAN:  One other thing, we had the question of

       14    witnesses and I indicated to you we have one witness sitting

       15    here, and since this is part of the trial what would you like

       16    to do?

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  During the tape authentication

       18    portion, I have no objection to any witnesses staying in.

       19    That's okay.

       20             MR. FABIAN:  Neither do we.

       21             MR. ROSENBERG:  During the case in chief I would

       22    invoke the rule, I think it is 615, to sequester witnesses.

       23    Let me just confer, if I might, with Mr. Fabian.

       24             There is one witness who I believe is affiliated with

       25    some position with the defendant.  His name is --

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



        1             MR. FABIAN:  Walter.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  And they requested that he be able to

        3    stay.  And based on the representation that he has no knowledge

        4    of the events in question, we have no objection to him

        5    remaining.  All other witnesses on both sides, except

        6    Ms. Whitson and when Mr. Wapnick arrives, the rule permits

        7    designation.

        8             Thank you, your Honor.

        9             THE COURT:  Okay.

       10             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Remain standing and raise your

       11    right hand.

       12     ORLANDO GATTILLO,

       13         a witness called by the defendant,

       14         having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       15             THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Please be seated.


       17    BY MR. FABIAN:

       18    Q.  Mr. Gattillo, could you tell this Court where you have your

       19    business located?

       20    A.  538 West 29th Street, New York City.

       21    Q.  What is the nature of the business that you are in, sir?

       22    A.  I run a forensic audio lab.

       23    Q.  And were you contacted by the defendants in this action,

       24    New Christian Church and Endeavor Academy in connection with

       25    doing certain forensic work?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  Yes, sir.

        2    Q.  And can you briefly describe for the Court your background,

        3    your educational background and experience as it relates to the

        4    forensic work that you do?

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Your Honor, we don't contest

        6    Mr. Gattillo's credentials to testify.  You'll hear from our

        7    expert, our expert trained Mr. Gattillo.  So I can assume he

        8    did a good job, and we'll accept the witness's testimony for

        9    purpose of authenticating these tapes.

       10             MR. FABIAN:  If we could, your Honor, could we submit

       11    his curriculum vitae so it could be marked as Defendant's 1?

       12             THE COURT:  Let's do it A, if you don't mind.

       13             (Defendant's Exhibit A received in evidence)

       14    Q.  Now, Mr. Gattillo, in connection with your work that you

       15    did for the defendants, did there come a time in October of

       16    2002 when certain materials were delivered to you?

       17    A.  Yes, sir.

       18    Q.  And in connection --

       19             THE COURT:  Excuse me, Mr. Fabian, just tell me, just

       20    give me a short offer.  What is all this?

       21             MR. FABIAN:  This relates to the four Mazza tapes,

       22    your Honor, in which your Honor had indicated your Honor wanted

       23    some testimony as to the --

       24             THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what tapes; which ones?

       25             MR. FABIAN:  In the hearing back in June, your Honor,

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    we had given testimony concerning the Mazza tapes, Mr. Mazza.

        2             THE COURT:  Who is Mazza?

        3             MR. FABIAN:  He had recovered a reel to reel tape from

        4    ARE, and he actually had the physical reel to reel, and he

        5    testified concerning that.  And your Honor indicated you

        6    wanted -- it wasn't coming in unless there was some expert

        7    testimony in terms of the tape and its integration and whether

        8    there were any breaks, stops, starts and so forth in it.

        9             Mr. Gattillo --

       10             THE COURT:  This was a tape of -- these are various of

       11    the plaintiffs?

       12             MR. FABIAN:  Of Judith Skutch Whitson, in which she

       13    made various statements concerning handing out the materials.

       14             THE COURT:  And this was the one where the witness

       15    testified that he could not state that -- this is the question

       16    of the integrity of the tape?

       17             MR. FABIAN:  Yes, that's what we're getting to, your

       18    Honor.

       19             THE COURT:  Thanks.

       20    Q.  Getting back to my questioning, in or about October of

       21    2002, did you receive certain materials from myself on behalf

       22    of the defendants?

       23    A.  Yes, I did.

       24    Q.  And do you recall what those materials were?

       25    A.  It was a five inch reel to reel audio tape.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  And did you receive anything else?

        2    A.  I believe I received a transcript.

        3    Q.  And did you as well receive four audio cassettes of those

        4    particular excerpts?

        5    A.  At a later date, yes.

        6    Q.  And could you please tell the Court what you did in

        7    connection with the reel to reel tape and the materials that

        8    were delivered to you?

        9    A.  The reel to reel tapes were examined, listened to under

       10    extreme listening, I would say.  They are examined under a

       11    microscope for indicators of stops, starts, pauses and any

       12    other indicator of tampering.

       13    Q.  And in general, Mr. Gattillo, are there particular types of

       14    tests that can be made, that should be made to reel to reel

       15    tapes to determine if there are any what we'll call breaks,

       16    starts and so forth?

       17    A.  Yes, any tapes, reel to reel or standard cassettes or even

       18    microcassettes.

       19    Q.  Is there more than one test that can be done?

       20    A.  Yes.

       21    Q.  What are the test or tests that can be done?

       22    A.  The first would be critical listening.  Listening first to

       23    the speaker repeatedly, I would emphasize, and then listening

       24    to the background itself for continuity.

       25    Q.  Did you do the critical listening test in connection with

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    the Mazza, what we call the Mazza tape?

        2    A.  Yes, sir.

        3    Q.  And in connection with that critical listening, did you do

        4    it from the reel to reel or had you done something to the tape

        5    prior to that?

        6    A.  I would digitize the tape, basically recording it into a

        7    computer in a digital format so that sections could be played

        8    over and over or fast forward, rewind quickly.  And it makes a

        9    truer copy rather than losing one generation by copying it to

       10    something else.

       11    Q.  And did you do any other types of testing besides critical

       12    listening?

       13    A.  Yes, once inside the computer, you can evaluate the audio

       14    as a wave form analysis, which is a spectro representation of

       15    the words spoken themselves.

       16    Q.  Is this a standard test that is done?

       17    A.  Yes.

       18    Q.  What kind of equipment did you have to do this?

       19    A.  A specialized computer program, a computer and a digitizing

       20    machine.

       21    Q.  Besides the digitizing and the critical listening and I

       22    believe you just said spectro analysis; is that correct?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  Is there any other test?

       25    A.  Microscopic examination and what would be referred to as

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    magnetic resolution.

        2    Q.  Can you describe what that is?

        3    A.  That's a procedure where the tape is exposed to a fluid

        4    containing metal particles.  The fluid evaporates, the metal

        5    particles stick to the audio portions of the recording.  Then

        6    you look at it under a microscope looking for a signature of

        7    the stop, start pause and/or splices or cuts.

        8    Q.  And did you do any other testing?  I think you had

        9    mentioned some wave form analysis.  Can you describe what that

       10    is?

       11    A.  That's examining again the computerized copy for indicators

       12    of where the recorder was started, stopped, paused; indicators

       13    of anomalies like tapping, pop clicks.

       14    Q.  Now, did you do this analysis in connection with the

       15    excerpts in issue that had been delivered to you?

       16    A.  Are we talking about the reel to reel or the --

       17    Q.  On the Mazza, the reel to reel or the copies that he made?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  And how did you do that testing?  How did you investigate

       20    the excerpts?

       21    A.  Again by isolating them, listening to them deliberately

       22    closely.

       23    Q.  Did you have the excerpts -- were they themselves subject

       24    to these various tests that you discussed?

       25    A.  Yes, sir.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  Now, by the way, when you looked at this reel to reel and

        2    the work that you did, do you know from approximately what

        3    period of time this tape was?  Was it a modern tape from the

        4    80s or from the 90s or 2000s?

        5    A.  It's reel to reel tapes that are seldom seen nowadays.

        6    Q.  When was it more common?

        7    A.  In the 80s.  Certainly after Watergate, during.

        8    Q.  And in connection -- by the way, in connection with these

        9    particular tapes, the Mazza tapes, could you please state for

       10    the Court what your conclusion was after you did these various

       11    tests?

       12    A.  My conclusion was that the excerpts in particular, there

       13    was a flow of information uninterrupted with nothing that would

       14    indicate tampering.

       15    Q.  In connection with the entire tapes themselves, did you

       16    find any evidence of tampering?

       17    A.  No.

       18    Q.  Did you find any evidence of clicks, stops, starts and so

       19    forth?

       20    A.  Oh, certainly, yes.

       21    Q.  And can you state generally what were the causes of some of

       22    these stops and starts and so forth?

       23    A.  If I'm not mistaken, they was a deliberate start at the

       24    beginning of the lecture or conversation and deliberate stops

       25    at the end.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  Were there stops in between?

        2    A.  Not that I recall.

        3    Q.  And in connection with the Mazza tapes, did you prepare a

        4    report?

        5    A.  Yes, I did.

        6    Q.  And I'm going to ask --

        7             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, should we go through the

        8    procedure of marking for identification?

        9             THE COURT:  Yes, mark it so we know it's admitted.

       10             MR. FABIAN:  We can mark as Defendant's B for

       11    identification the signed report of Mr. Gattillo dated November

       12    18, 2002, which is part of his report.

       13             Your Honor, just so you'll know, his curriculum vitae

       14    is attached and also there is a letter from me indicating what

       15    I was delivering to him.

       16             THE COURT:  It's admitted.

       17             (Defendant's Exhibit B received in evidence)

       18             MR. FABIAN:  I would ask if the witness could look at

       19    that document.

       20    Q.  Mr. Gattillo, tell me if, in fact, that's your signature at

       21    the end of the report?

       22    A.  Yes, it is.

       23    Q.  Can you please review that document and tell the Court

       24    whether that constitutes your entire report in connection with

       25    the Mazza tape?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  Yes, it is.

        2             MR. FABIAN:  I would ask that that be marked as

        3    Defendant's B in evidence, your Honor.

        4             THE COURT:  It's in.

        5    Q.  Now, in connection with the report, Mr. Gattillo, and your

        6    previous testimony, you had talked about critical listening as

        7    one of the tests that was done.

        8             Can you describe for the Court when you're talking

        9    about critical listening, what are you listening for?  Is there

       10    one thing you're listening for or more than one?

       11    A.  There are many things you're listening for.  You're

       12    listening on headphones following a transcript, looking for

       13    continuity.  You're also listening for obvious clicks, noises

       14    that could be associated with tampering, and you're listening

       15    to backgrounds, background changes to show whether they are

       16    free flowing and continuous.

       17    Q.  In connection to your listening to the Mazza tape, did you

       18    find any discrepancies with respect to background or ambient

       19    noise which would indicate there was some tampering?

       20    A.  No.

       21    Q.  Did you find any discrepancies in terms of the flow of the

       22    statements made by the party doing the speaking to indicate

       23    there had been any tampering?

       24    A.  No.

       25    Q.  Now, Mr. Gattillo, subsequent to your listening to the

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Mazza tape, were there some other tapes that were delivered to

        2    you?

        3    A.  Yes, I received four standard size cassettes in May for

        4    examination.

        5             MR. FABIAN:  Now, your Honor, just as an offer of

        6    proof at this point, we're going to be talking about the four

        7    ARE tapes.

        8             Your Honor, again, as I understood your Honor's order,

        9    we were going to present testimony concerning the integration

       10    of the tape and Mr. Gattillo's examination of it for any

       11    tampering.

       12    Q.  Now, Mr. Gattillo, in connection with the examination of

       13    the ARE tapes which were delivered to you in May, could you

       14    describe for the Court the nature of these tapes that were

       15    delivered to you?

       16    A.  The nature?

       17    Q.  Was it again a reel to reel tape or was it different, in a

       18    different format?

       19    A.  These were four standard size audio cassettes as opposed to

       20    open reel to reel.

       21             MR. FABIAN:  And I will represent to the Court that

       22    when it was delivered to Mr. Gattillo, in fact it was the

       23    copies, your Honor, that were made by the court reporter at the

       24    deposition from the copies that were in ARE's possession when

       25    we took the deposition?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1             MR. ROSENBERG:  I can't stipulate to what a court

        2    reporter in Virginia Beach did.  And Larry and I have a

        3    different recollection.  I have no recollection of the court

        4    reporter making copies.  We took a deposition of an ARE

        5    representative by telephone who was down in Virginia Beach.  I

        6    have no recollection of the reporter making copies of audio

        7    cassettes, so I can't stipulate.  That's not testimony.

        8             THE COURT:  Anyhow, whatever they were, you got them?

        9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

       10    Q.  And what type of analysis did you do of the ARE tapes,

       11    Mr. Gattillo?

       12    A.  I did limited analysis due to the fact that they were

       13    copies as opposed to originals.

       14    Q.  And what analysis did you do?

       15    A.  Again --

       16             THE COURT:  Excuse me, how do you know they were

       17    copies as opposed to originals?

       18             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, again, we may have a

       19    disagreement, but as to --

       20             THE COURT:  How do you know that they were copies and

       21    not originals?

       22             THE WITNESS:  There are tests that can be done to the

       23    tape to determine whether it is an original or a copy.

       24             THE COURT:  I see.

       25    Q.  And did you do that test?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  Yes, I did.

        2    Q.  So you determined it was a copy?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  I apologize, your Honor.  I misunderstood

        5    what you were asking.

        6    Q.  In connection with this copy, I believe you said -- what

        7    test did you do?

        8    A.  Again, critical listening is the first thing, digitizing,

        9    putting it into the computer and doing wave form analysis and

       10    spectrum analysis.

       11    Q.  And is there any other type of analysis that can be done to

       12    copies of tapes, to the best of your knowledge?

       13    A.  Well, you can't -- you can do microscopic examinations, but

       14    they are not going to be valid because they are a copy.  You're

       15    not going to see the heads where they actually hit the tape,

       16    where they would stop or pause.

       17    Q.  And that you did do in connection with the Mazza tape?

       18    A.  Yes.

       19    Q.  Now, in connection with these ARE tapes, did you find any

       20    breaks or stops or starts based upon your critical listening?

       21    A.  Yes, I did.

       22    Q.  And did you find any in connection with the excerpts

       23    themselves that are before this Court?

       24    A.  Within the excerpts themselves, no.

       25    Q.  Did you check on both sides of the excerpts?

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  Yes, sir.

        2    Q.  And about how far on each side did you check?

        3    A.  All sides, beginning to end, on all four tapes repeatedly.

        4    Q.  And did you find any form of tampering based upon this

        5    particular type of analysis?

        6    A.  In the excerpts, no.

        7    Q.  And how about on the tape itself, each tape itself?

        8    A.  Well, there are obvious anomalies that occurred, which I

        9    noted in my report.

       10    Q.  Could you describe --

       11    A.  There are deliberate stops, let's say, between the lecture

       12    and the question period when they took a break.  There are

       13    situations where the tape in the copying process wound itself

       14    and played backwards, so that the recording played backwards

       15    when she got to that spot, which was also reflected on the

       16    opposite side as you would expect.

       17    Q.  And was the playing backward near the excerpts that you

       18    investigated?

       19    A.  No, this was toward the end of the tape.

       20    Q.  Okay.

       21             And you testified in connection with the Mazza tapes

       22    that when you do this critical hearing analysis, that you check

       23    both for background and the flow of the material itself; is

       24    that correct?

       25    A.  Yes, sir.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    Q.  And did you do that in connection with the ARE tapes?

        2    A.  Yes, I did.

        3    Q.  What did you find with respect to the ARE tapes with

        4    respect to background?

        5    A.  It was continuous and uninterrupted.

        6    Q.  What would indicate to you in terms of background noise

        7    that there had been some tampering or playing with the tape?

        8    A.  Well, you would hear abrupt changes in the background.  In

        9    an auditorium you have echo.  Somebody could be whispering,

       10    somebody could be -- you would expect all of that to be

       11    continuous and nonstop.  Similar to if you were listening to a

       12    radio in the background, you wouldn't expect it to jump from

       13    one section to another or from one song to another.

       14    Q.  And in connection with the ARE tapes, did you find any of

       15    this jumping or anything that would indicate that there had

       16    been tampering?

       17    A.  No, not in the excerpts.

       18    Q.  Did you find it in the tapes themselves?

       19    A.  Again, there are anomolies throughout all the tapes

       20    including speed changes, breaks, pops, clicks.

       21    Q.  And my question is to you, did any of these anomalies based

       22    upon your experience indicate to you that there had been some

       23    tampering or splicing of the tapes?

       24    A.  Not in the excerpts.

       25    Q.  I'm asking on the entire tapes themselves.

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300



             35jopenf                 Gattillo - direct

        1    A.  I'm sorry, repeat the question.

        2    Q.  Did you listen to the entire tapes?

        3    A.  Yes, I did.

        4    Q.  Did you analyze the entire tapes?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  Each of the four ARE tapes?

        7    A.  Yes.

        8    Q.  And you indicated, I believe, that there were certain

        9    anomalies thank you found?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And in examining each of the entire four ARE tapes, did any

       12    of these anomalies indicate to you that there had been any

       13    tampering with the tapes?

       14    A.  Not having the originals to examine, that would be hard to

       15    stipulate.

       16    Q.  But so I'm clear, were there any anomalies around the

       17    excerpts which are in issue?

       18    A.  No.

       19             MR. FABIAN:  Your Honor, I would ask to be marked into

       20    evidence as Defendant's C, the signed report of Mr. Gattillo in

       21    connection with the ARE tapes.

       22             THE COURT:  What's being marked?

       23             MR. FABIAN:  Mr. Gattillo's report in connection with

       24    the ARE tapes as Defendant's Exhibit C.

       25             (Defendant's Exhibit C received in evidence)

                            SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                                      (212) 805-0300

Close Window | Back to page one | Page 13