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        1             THE COURT:  Okay, and 16 is the soft copy.

        2             MR. ROSENBERG:  16 is the Journey Without Distance

        3    book.

        4             MR. FABIAN:  Is that the Celestial Arts version?

        5             MR. ROSENBERG:  Yes, that's the Celestial Arts

        6    version.

        7             THE COURT:  They are all admitted.

        8             (Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 received in evidence)

        9    Q.  Bob Skutch's book has been changed, correct?

       10    A.  Yes.

       11    Q.  And it was changed after the Foundation of Inner Peace

       12    began to publish it, right?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  And it no longer says that at least in the soft cover

       15    version; is that your understanding?

       16    A.  In the soft cover it does not.

       17    Q.  Since this already came out, I can't do much about it, it

       18    might be attorney-client privilege, it's too late since it was

       19    on the record.  How did it come that that language was taken

       20    out of Journey Without Distance?

       21    A.  We were represented by a firm in California and their

       22    attorneys told us to change it to what was more truthful.

       23    Q.  And did you rely on the advice of counsel and change it?

       24    A.  That's the only reason we did it.

       25    Q.  And that was after the litigation was commenced?

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        1    A.  I believe so, yes.

        2    Q.  It was certainly after the dispute had arisen?

        3    A.  Yes.

        4    Q.  I want to make this clear for a number of reasons.  Did I

        5    have anything to do with any recommendation that that be

        6    changed?

        7    A.  Not in the least.

        8    Q.  Did I even know you then?

        9    A.  You certainly did not.

       10    Q.  Did my firm have any involvement in the decision?

       11    A.  No.

       12    Q.  Does that firm still represent you?

       13    A.  Thank goodness, no.

       14    Q.  While Bob Skutch wrote that book, he is not the only person

       15    who made statements about A Course in Miracles after the fact?

       16    A.  No.

       17    Q.  Did you ever do any public speaking?

       18    A.  Quite a bit.

       19    Q.  Do you still do any?

       20    A.  Very, very little, but once in a while I do, yes.

       21    Q.  How about in '76, '77, 78 into the 80s?

       22    A.  I traveled a great deal.

       23    Q.  If you had to estimate how many speeches about A Course in

       24    Miracles did you give?

       25    A.  I don't know that.  I couldn't estimate exactly, but one

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        1    year I traveled 100,000 miles and a few others pretty close to

        2    that, and I could have been speaking about it three times a

        3    week.  It's including workshops because sometimes it lasted for

        4    a weekend, sometimes four days and a few times a whole week

        5    workshop, but I would say in the high numbers.

        6    Q.  Hundreds and hundreds of times did you speak?

        7    A.  I don't know about hundreds and hundreds, but I would say a

        8    few hundred, yes.

        9    Q.  What was the general focus and purpose of your speeches

       10    that you gave?

       11    A.  To bring the message of the course.

       12    Q.  And did you sometimes as part of your speeches tell a

       13    version of the story of how A Course in Miracles was developed?

       14    A.  Usually people wanted to hear how it came, it was

       15    interesting.

       16    Q.  And, in fact, the course, the Foundation for Inner Peace

       17    itself has a video that's called, I think, How It Came?

       18    A.  That's correct.

       19    Q.  And that's presented by the Foundation for Inner Peace,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  Yes, it is.

       22    Q.  And you tell in part, it's maybe an hour or more video; is

       23    that right?

       24    A.  It's an hour.

       25    Q.  You talk on that tape?

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        1    A.  Partially.  I am one of the participants on that tape, yes.

        2    Q.  I'm going to read you something that we represent is your

        3    words on the tape.  Defendant's are more than familiar with it.

        4             You say "and while studying, I shared it with a lot of

        5    people.  I made many trips to California.  And while there I

        6    told a whole community of people I worked with the story of the

        7    course.

        8             Did you tell the story of the course to a lot of

        9    people in California?

       10    A.  I certainly told it to some people in California, and I

       11    would say many.

       12    Q.  Jim Bolen, Gerry Jampolsky, Eleanor Criswell, Russell

       13    Tarring?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  Naturally, they all wanted to see copies; is that literally

       16    true?

       17    A.  I'm afraid not.  There are a few not interested at all.

       18    Q.  Edgar Mitchell?

       19    A.  Among others.

       20    Q.  But many were interested?

       21    A.  That's true.

       22    Q.  And then you say with no reference to particular editions

       23    you say, "I was kept busy running off xerox copies of A Course

       24    in Miracles, and at five cents a page for a 1500 page document

       25    it was very expensive.

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        1             First of all, literally did you run xeroxes of copies

        2    in A Course in Miracles?

        3    A.  I ran off two in the very beginning when I traveled.

        4    Q.  Did that keep you busy?

        5    A.  It was 1500 pages and I did one of them on the machine by

        6    hand.

        7    Q.  Was it about five cents a page at that time?

        8    A.  I think at that time it was, yes.

        9    Q.  Was it expensive?

       10    A.  I would call $75 in those days very expensive.

       11    Q.  Who else was running off copies?

       12    A.  Eleanor Criswell, she, was busy preparing it for xeroxing.

       13    Q.  You said over and over again, you said this must be

       14    published in a form we can carry.  I went back to New York and

       15    discussed it with you and Helen.  This is Bill Thetford

       16    talking?

       17    A.  That's true.

       18    Q.  I want to make clear, did you ever, ever, ever, xerox

       19    multiple copies other than the ones you testified about of the

       20    manuscript of the course in 8 and a half by 11 form?

       21    A.  I did not.

       22    Q.  Now, there is another video that has been released, I

       23    believe, by the Foundation for Inner Peace.  If I can just have

       24    a moment to find my notes, and it's called The Story of A

       25    Course in Miracles.  Are you familiar with that video?

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        1    A.  Yes, I am.

        2    Q.  Have you listened to that prior to testifying today?

        3    A.  Yes, I have.

        4    Q.  And you speak on it and Bill Thetford speaks on it?

        5    A.  Among others, yes.

        6    Q.  And Bill says we met a large number of very eminent people

        7    in California as well as in New York who were serious students

        8    in the course; is that true?

        9    A.  Yes, it is.

       10    Q.  All of them wanted additional copies; is that true?

       11    A.  Yes, it is.

       12    Q.  All of them, many of them?

       13    A.  Many of them, yes.

       14    Q.  Everyone was dissatisfied with the fact that this is

       15    available, xeroxing hundreds and hundreds of material.  How was

       16    the Criswell edition made?

       17    A.  Xeroxing.

       18    Q.  Was it satisfactory?

       19    A.  It wasn't satisfying to us, no.

       20    Q.  What happened every time you ran out of the xerox?

       21    A.  We had to make more.

       22    Q.  So we had to entertain the idea of publication; is that

       23    true?

       24    A.  Yes.

       25    Q.  What do you understand Mr. Thetford to be referring to by

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        1    publication?

        2             MR. FABIAN:  Objection as to what Thetford thought

        3    about when he made that statement.

        4             THE COURT:  Sustained.

        5    Q.  What did you refer to as publication of the Course in

        6    Miracles?

        7    A.  The hard cover three books in 1976 was what we called the

        8    publication.  The others we called the copies, the xerox

        9    copies.

       10    Q.  Now, on this tape on counter 57:41 I'm told you say the

       11    following, we looked around the room and realized there we

       12    were, but where was the money to come from, that was the only

       13    thing we didn't have.  We sat in quiet and I remember even the

       14    date that that happened.  It was Valentine's Day 1976.

       15             Have you already testified about this?

       16    A.  Yes, I did.

       17    Q.  And this is after the Criswell xerox of the manuscript was

       18    being disseminated?

       19    A.  Yes.

       20    Q.  You said because as we sat quietly internalizing, asking

       21    the Holy Spirit, the voice of God and direct us and tell us the

       22    answer to that question, I heard something so clearly I

       23    couldn't deny it, and the answer was make the commitment first.

       24             That's consistent with your testimony today, correct?

       25    A.  Yes, it is.

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        1    Q.  And I'm not going to read all of this, and you talk about

        2    Reid Erickson calling, and you testified about that today,

        3    correct?

        4    A.  Correct.

        5    Q.  And you said he said to me, he being Reid, I'm studying the

        6    manuscript called The Course in Miracles given to me by your

        7    friend Zelda Supree, and I'm so delighted.  And he goes on to

        8    say, and then he said -- by the way, did Reid Erickson have a

        9    copy of the manuscript of A Course in Miracles?

       10    A.  He had the manuscript that we ran off, xerox copies that

       11    was much smaller than the 8 and a half by 11.

       12    Q.  The Criswell version?

       13    A.  Yes.

       14    Q.  You don't deny that?

       15    A.  No.

       16    Q.  You said according to you on the tape, and I told him I was

       17    very glad to hear and we chatted a bit, and he said the form in

       18    which it is now is very unwieldy, you have to have it published

       19    in hard covered books; that's what you said on the tape,

       20    correct?

       21    A.  That's right.

       22    Q.  Is that what Mr. Erickson told you?

       23    A.  Yes.

       24    Q.  What was the form that you had it in then in 1976?

       25    A.  It was the reduced size manuscript.

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        1    Q.  What was the next size that was published?

        2    A.  Hard cover.

        3    Q.  He told you you had to have it published in hard covered

        4    books, correct?

        5    A.  That's right.

        6    Q.  In addition to these tapes that Foundation of Inner Peace

        7    released, did you take issue with the statements you released

        8    there?

        9    A.  No.

       10    Q.  You said you gave 100 or more speeches.  Have you since

       11    learned that some of your speeches were tape recorded?

       12    A.  Yes, I have.

       13    Q.  And you were present during today's proceeding where there

       14    was a legal argument about whether certain tapes could come in

       15    and what have you?  Are you familiar with that?

       16    A.  Yes.

       17             MR. ROSENBERG:  And based on the judge's preliminary

       18    ruling, as the Court said, I'll take them for what they are

       19    worth, I don't want this to be a concession that these are

       20    admissible because we still have our objection, but on the

       21    possibility that they are going to be considered, can we make

       22    inquiry?

       23             THE COURT:  Of course.

       24    Q.  Have you read some of those tapes?

       25    A.  I have read transcripts of some of them, yes.

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        1    Q.  Out of the possible hundreds and hundreds of speeches,

        2    there are maybe a half of a dozen that are of interest to the

        3    defendants?

        4    A.  I forgot the number, but I think it is probably in that

        5    realm.

        6    Q.  Is everything you said on those recordings true?

        7    A.  No.

        8    Q.  Did you make misstatements?

        9    A.  I'm afraid I did.

       10    Q.  I'm going to read one of the excerpts of a tape that's

       11    trying to be introduced, which is actually, I believe, it's in

       12    evidence, New Mexico, so called, Santa Fe tape, have you

       13    listened or read a transcript of that tape?

       14             MR. FABIAN:  Just to make the record clear, you have

       15    admitted the Mexico tape way back in your first in limine

       16    motion statement.  There was no question about the authenticity

       17    of that one.

       18             MR. ROSENBERG:  That is correct.  I'm going to read to

       19    you from the transcript presented by the defendants.  It was

       20    very natural for me to take this material with me and say to my

       21    good friends, hey, look, look what I've got.  Do you want to

       22    read this?  They wanted to read it.  In fact, many people

       23    xeroxed the original pages, $75 for 1500, and a nickel a page.

       24    That's a lot of money just to have the material.  It was for

       25    anyone who wanted it, and it seemed very right that people

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        1    would pass it along, copy it over and copy it over until

        2    finally people's copies were getting so light that they

        3    couldn't see them any more.  And a few of us got together and

        4    recognized the need to put it in some kind of a form that was

        5    easier to read.  And out of that came very small little

        6    paperbacks that the print was so small that you need a

        7    magnifying glass.

        8             I have read that from the transcript.  Do you accept

        9    that that's your voice on the tape?

       10    A.  Yes, I do.

       11    Q.  Do you accept that you said that?

       12    A.  I probably did, yes.

       13    Q.  Do have you any reason to doubt it?

       14    A.  I have no reason whatsoever to doubt it.

       15    Q.  Are they entirely true?

       16    A.  No, they are not.

       17    Q.  Leaving Criswell aside, did many people xerox the original

       18    papers?

       19    A.  No.

       20    Q.  Did people copy copies until they were getting so light

       21    they couldn't see them any more?

       22    A.  I had no information to back that up.

       23    Q.  And then you said, I submit, we needed to put it in a form

       24    that was easier to read, and then you say you put it in one

       25    that was so small you needed a magnifying glass; is that easier

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        1    to read?

        2    A.  No, it is not.

        3    Q.  Is that what happened?

        4    A.  No, it wasn't.

        5    Q.  There are other tapes where you say some of them, we'll use

        6    them, by the way, that are consistent with the Criswell story,

        7    others suggested some copying was going on.

        8             Under oath are you aware of any widespread copying in

        9    A Course in Miracles in 8 and a half by 11 inch form?

       10    A.  I certainly am not.

       11    Q.  With all respect, what were you doing here?

       12    A.  I can only say that I was a spontaneous public speaker

       13    enlisted in this job.  I didn't use prepared speeches.  I was

       14    extremely enthusiastic.  I was telling stories, a narrative

       15    story teller.  I come from a long line of story tellers and my

       16    tradition also is part of story telling.

       17    Q.  Did you exaggerate?

       18    A.  Yes, embellished, exaggerated.  I sort of plugged it out of

       19    the air and put it in a form that people would be enthusiastic

       20    about, but I didn't have any intention to deceive, and I'm

       21    sorry I did it.

       22    Q.  What were you trying to tell the audience for these

       23    different speeches; what was the sentiment?

       24    A.  I was trying to express the enthusiasm of people, trying to

       25    inflame the interest of the audience.

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        1    Q.  How was their enthusiasm for the course?

        2    A.  Oh, great.

        3    Q.  Was there enthusiasm for hundreds and hundreds of the

        4    Criswell?

        5    A.  Yes.

        6    Q.  Did you mold or exaggerate the story?

        7    A.  I shortened it.  I changed it around and sometimes I gave

        8    different versions, and sometimes I even told people which

        9    story do you want?  It was --

       10    Q.  There was one speech where you say which story do you want?

       11             MR. FABIAN:  Objection to the leading.

       12    Q.  Is there something on the tape, one of the tapes where you

       13    say something about different versions?

       14    A.  Yes.

       15    Q.  What do you say?

       16    A.  Well, I said which story do you want?  And I also said

       17    something like, the people there were asking me to tell a story

       18    that was told many times, and I wanted to get to the crux of

       19    the matter, which is what the material was about, which was the

       20    purpose I was there.  And I just shortened it sometimes.  I

       21    moved it around sometimes.  There are times when one could say

       22    tremendous hyperboles where I told the story like Dr. Thetford

       23    where his wife was afraid of flying, and to this day he has her

       24    nail marks on his palm.  I do that.  That's the way I am.  This

       25    is the way I speak.

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        1    Q.  Did you do that today?

        2    A.  I did not do that today.

        3    Q.  What have you dedicated the last 25 or almost 30 years of

        4    your life to?

        5    A.  28 years to disseminate A Course of Miracles.

        6    Q.  What does it stand for to you?

        7    A.  It has a consistent thought system of love and forgiveness.

        8    It talks about honesty which is the consistency of thought and

        9    action.  It talks about relationship, and how we can see past

       10    devisiveness, and how we can in our minds and in our hearts see

       11    another person as not the shape or the form or the color or the

       12    size, but truly see them in spirit.

       13    Q.  You mentioned honesty.  Is that one of the fundamental

       14    components of the course?

       15    A.  It's a very important one.

       16    Q.  To save the copyright -- you're how old, 72 years old?

       17    A.  72.

       18    Q.  To save the copyright, would you lie to the Court?

       19    A.  No, I would not; I couldn't.

       20    Q.  What would that say?

       21    A.  It would negate everything I believe in.

       22    Q.  Have you done that today?

       23    A.  No, I have not.

       24             THE COURT:  Tomorrow morning, 9:30.

       25             Thank you very much.

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        1             (Case adjourned to May 20, 2003 at 9:30 a.m.)

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        1                           PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS

        2    Exhibit No.                                     Received

        3     10    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   174

        4     2   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .    46

        5    3 and 4 ......................................   132

        6     6   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   151

        7     9   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   163

        8     12-1, 12-2, 12-3    . . . . . . . . . . . . .   191

        9     13    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   192

       10     14    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   192

       11     15    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   199

       12     17    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   200

       13

       14                           DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

       15    Exhibit No.                                     Received

       16     A   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     6

       17    ORLANDO GATILLO

       18    Direct   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     5

       19    Cross By Mr. Rosenberg . . . . . . . . . . .    20

       20    Redirect By Mr. Fabian . . . . . . . . . . .    41

       21    THOMAS J. OWEN

       22    Direct Mr. Fabian  . . . . . . . . . . . . .    46

       23    Cross By Mr. Fabian  . . . . . . . . . . . .    51

       24    JUDITH SKUTCH WHITSON

       25    Direct By Mr. Rosenberg  . . . . . . . . . .    55

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